Kratom Why can’t I quit this….

[intergalacticBG]

I know kratom is relatively benign, and I take low doses every day (albeit many times a day, mine 6x.

I take around 10G a day, but it’s so hard for me to come down on this shit. Not even because of withdrawal symptoms, but mentally just wanting to take more or just adding a little more to my day.

I have so many bags of different batches and bags and i rotate a lot,but wonder if I should get one batch and just taper off that to take a break.

I feel like im being a bitch but don’t know how to break through. My mind always wants to buy new batches and try new bags think im missing out.

Almost buying more is just as addicting. I know this probably makes no sense and is fucking dumb, I just don’t know what to do. Think I just need a plan.

An awesome member on here was gonna help me transfer to subs, but I’m just worried about that too.

I hate being so damn anxious and addicted. It rules my life, Even if it gives me some benefit.

I don’t want to be numb like this forever. I’m already working on getting off benzos and am down to really low Valium dose.

Don’t know what to do. Sorry if I’m just rambling.

 

[Robi]

Never feel like you're rambling ,we care and we ramble, I know what to do,your are being a with your batches,I know you don't want to be ruled,taking more and more and more, you're a smart kid,you know what to do,the benefit is gone in my case,so.I did what was
r
ight for me and I want you to go my route
The plan is to....well.you know ,hunker down and stop it

 

[Keif' Richards]

@intergalacticBG Hey big guy

First off, most Opioids are "benign" in the context I believe you're meaning. Morphine, Heroin, Oxycodone, Hydromorphone... they're all virtually non-toxic to the body in the way say, Alcohol is. Alcohol is poisonous to almost every organ in one way or another. Opioids' most dangerous potential complication would be severe constipation. Yes, too much Morphine will kill a person, though too much water will also kill a person and we need to imbibe that constantly to live. Opioids cause the most damage to our lives and relationships in how they warp our reward system, causing us to make increasingly poor decisions in their pursuit. Mitragynine appears to be of little difference to any other common Mu Opioid agonists.

I'm sorry to hear you are still in the same spot. First off, you're never rambling. We're all here to help each other. As you know, there aren't a lot of legitimately safe spaces to talk about these issues. Your doctor tells you things, your pastor tells you things, your wife tells you things, but often the best help for an addict is going to come directly from another addict. Other people may mean well. The sad truth is that they often don't know dick about the true color of a person's struggle inside their own head. It gets boiled down to bad vs. good. Individuals with no knowledge of these feelings are quick to break it down for us how simple the whole thing is.

You're not crazy or broken. This type of shit will make you crazy. We've talked about this before a bit. You have all of this plant material of various potency with no real benchmark or perspective for how much of which batch is actually going to do what. Hell, even a person taking only Methadone tablets from the pharmacy as their drug of choice often has little perspective on the true cause and effect of their chronic use and they know exactly how much Opioid they are consuming.

When you have no perspective as an Opioid addict, you'll find that your mind will usually find a good reason to take a little bit more. You keep taking that little bit more and pretty soon you're saturated. Once you're saturated, you hit a wall and can no longer get relief. The first dose of Kratom you ever took that made you feel so great, well, now you take 10x that dose 4x per day and all you feel it numb. The returns diminish to the point that you're chasing a feeling that's not even there anymore no matter how much you take.

Then you are left with your debilitating tolerance/dependence with the soul-crushing caveat being that there no longer is a "benefit" per se, only a great reason not to let yourself get sick and feel worse than you already do. As Opioid addicts, this phase typically sees us adopt relief from physical misery as the surrogate to the high that we can no longer experience. You start to get off on the thought that you're not gonna want to kill yourself anymore after you take your drugs.

So I've been through it. A lot of us have been through it. That doesn't mean you have to live it forever.

To get out of this, you're going to need structure. You're going to need someone else to help you make decisions for a short time until you are fully able to handle those decisions yourself, maybe weeks or a couple months until you're on your feet. You don't need to fix the problem overnight. You just need to start chipping away at it one small bit at a time. Once you realize you're capable of making progress, the hope will motivate you to keep pushing and go farther. The hardest part is getting started, but there are people here who can help you, myself included.

If you want help or need support, you've got me and plenty of other people.

 

[tokayeahok]

@intergalacticBG Hey big guy

First off, most Opioids are "benign" in the context I believe you're meaning. Morphine, Heroin, Oxycodone, Hydromorphone... they're all virtually non-toxic to the body in the way say, Alcohol is. Alcohol is poisonous to almost every organ in one way or another. Opioids' most dangerous potential complication would be severe constipation. Yes, too much Morphine will kill a person, though too much water will also kill a person and we need to imbibe that constantly to live. Opioids cause the most damage to our lives and relationships in how they warp our reward system, causing us to make increasingly poor decisions in their pursuit. Mitragynine appears to be of little difference to any other common Mu Opioid agonists.

I'm sorry to hear you are still in the same spot. First off, you're never rambling. We're all here to help each other. As you know, there aren't a lot of legitimately safe spaces to talk about these issues. Your doctor tells you things, your pastor tells you things, your wife tells you things, but often the best help for an addict is going to come directly from another addict. Other people may mean well. The sad truth is that they often don't know dick about the true color of a person's struggle inside their own head. It gets boiled down to bad vs. good. Individuals with no knowledge of these feelings are quick to break it down for us how simple the whole thing is.

You're not crazy or broken. This type of shit will make you crazy. We've talked about this before a bit. You have all of this plant material of various potency with no real benchmark or perspective for how much of which batch is actually going to do what. Hell, even a person taking only Methadone tablets from the pharmacy as their drug of choice often has little perspective on the true cause and effect of their chronic use and they know exactly how much Opioid they are consuming.

When you have no perspective as an Opioid addict, you'll find that your mind will usually find a good reason to take a little bit more. You keep taking that little bit more and pretty soon you're saturated. Once you're saturated, you hit a wall and can no longer get relief. The first dose of Kratom you ever took that made you feel so great, well, now you take 10x that dose 4x per day and all you feel it numb. The returns diminish to the point that you're chasing a feeling that's not even there anymore no matter how much you take.

Then you are left with your debilitating tolerance/dependence with the soul-crushing caveat being that there no longer is a "benefit" per se, only a great reason not to let yourself get sick and feel worse than you already do. As Opioid addicts, this phase typically sees us adopt relief from physical misery as the surrogate to the high that we can no longer experience. You start to get off on the thought that you're not gonna want to kill yourself anymore after you take your drugs.

So I've been through it. A lot of us have been through it. That doesn't mean you have to live it forever.

To get out of this, you're going to need structure. You're going to need someone else to help you make decisions for a short time until you are fully able to handle those decisions yourself, maybe weeks or a couple months until you're on your feet. You don't need to fix the problem overnight. You just need to start chipping away at it one small bit at a time. Once you realize you're capable of making progress, the hope will motivate you to keep pushing and go farther. The hardest part is getting started, but there are people here who can help you, myself included.

If you want help or need support, you've got me and plenty of other people.

brilliant advice as always.

 

[Mjäll]

A good start would be to stop mystifying these "batches" since they do not vary significantly in chemical composition and effects. It's mostly a marketing ploy and this cultivated curiosity augments addictive tendencies.

You could just get one bag and taper down as you say, but more importantly you should realize that all of the bags are essentially the same and there is no exploration or discovery to be had among them.

The exaggeration of minor or fictional product variations is a classic hallmark of addiction. Many people do that with alcohol and cannabis too. I guess it serves to paint the addiction in a more flattering light, if you can talk about various interesting varieties of a thing instead of just craving a fix.

 

[BourbonMac]

Don't transfer to subs, I think that's a bad idea.
Yeah, it's tough isn't it. I don't know how long you've taken it, but detoxing from 10g a day, while it is horrible, it doesn't last long like pills and whatnot.
You may also reach a point where you simply stop liking kratom. This is how I was with alcohol, phenibut, etc. and I'm pretty lucky, because I would've been hooked on phenibut bad if something in my brain didn't suddenly tell me "this is not it"

Things to help withdrawals (do taper like you say):

1. Magnesium Glycinate: Helps with restless legs/body
2. Black Seed Oil/Nigella Sativa: Helps with most of the withdrawals, surprisingly so. This stuff can also make you feel really good
3. Melatonin 10mg at night
4. Drink a LOT of water: Hydration can help offset restless legs, or at least it's known to for people who suffer from it, though it's not a big help
5. Go for walks: Keeping active makes the restless feeling go away, keeps your mind off of it and stuff
6. Gabapentin: If you happened to have this, you'll have like no withdrawals, but chances are, you don't unless you asked your doctor for it because of like... nerve pain? I had mine prescribed purely as an off label antidepressant.

If all else fails, drop some LSD and see if it rewires your brain (kidding)
You can do this. I've come off kratom multiple times and dealt with the horrid withdrawals. You can always message me if you'd like to know more.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I agree with what you're saying regarding different batches. I'm sure they label some stuff as extremely potent and some as more mild. I'm not super familiar with the actual logistics of purchasing Kratom, so I can't speak to that. I mostly am referring to variations in the product in general. It's plant material and I don't believe the majority of Kratom is grown in hyper-controlled environments like you might see with Cannabis. The plants are going to vary in potency and chemical composition due to variables like light, soil etc. You're going to end up with some variability from batch to batch I feel.

@BourbonMac I agree that most folks dependent upon Kratom are not great candidates for a treatment as relatively radical as Buprenorphine maintenance. Given the relatively low potency of Kratom compared to the drugs that really birthed Buprenorphine treatment, Heroin and Oxycodone among others, I don't feel it's a measured response.

However, I don't think the idea of using Buprenorphine for a short while as a transition is out of the question. Buprenorphine comes in a standardized dose and we can adjust this in minute increments if we use volumetric dosing. I'm just throwing numbers out there, but let's say a person taking 10g of Kratom per day wants to use Buprenorphine to step down, I feel 0.3mg-0.4mg Sublingually up to twice a day to start could be a great aid in the process.