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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Harm Reduction Who ends up 'dumber'? Junkies or Tweakers?

Jabberwocky

Frumious Bandersnatch
Joined
Nov 3, 1999
Messages
84,998
I've been looking up papers about memory impairment from amphetamine use (because I can’t remember what I had for breakfast most days) and found this very interesting study which suggests (for men at least) amphetamine causes greater and likely irreparable cognitive impairment than do opiates. However, opiates do also cause significant impairment. The only caveat, is that opiate users and amphetamine users might have begun by being more impaired than non-users to begin with (i.e. inclined to do drugs due to brain structure). Unfortunately there are no before and after studies looking at long term use. Also unfortunately, impairment does not seem to get better with time in adults - putting the neuroplasticity argument into question.

Very interesting that women drug-users end up significantly LESS cognitively dysfunctional than male users, although in the non-drug user control group men were cognitively superior.

I was very surprised to learn about opiates causing significant and likely permanent impairment (if it was not there to begin with.

How are your cognitive skills? When in your drug career did you notice impairment?

ABSTRACT

Cognitive function was assessed in chronic drug users on neurocognitive measures of executive and memory function. Current amphetamine users were contrasted with current opiate users, and these two groups were compared with former users of these substances (abstinent for at least one year). Four groups of participants were recruited: amphetamine-dependent individuals, opiate-dependent individuals, former users of amphetamines, and/or opiates and healthy non-drug taking controls. Participants were administered the Tower of London (TOL) planning task and the 3D-IDED attentional set-shifting task to assess executive function, and Paired Associates Learning and Delayed Pattern Recognition Memory tasks to assess visual memory function. The three groups of substance users showed significant impairments on TOL planning, Pattern Recognition Memory and Paired Associates Learning. Current amphetamine users displayed a greater degree of impairment than current opiate users. Consistent with previous research showing that healthy men are performing better on visuo-spatial tests than women, our male controls remembered significantly more paired associates than their female counterparts. This relationship was reversed in drug users. While performance of female drug users was normal, male drug users showed significant impairment compared to both their female counterparts and male controls. There was no difference in performance between current and former drug users. Neither years of drug abuse nor years of drug abstinence were associated with performance. Chronic drug users display pronounced neuropsychological impairment in the domains of executive and memory function. Impairment persists after several years of drug abstinence and may reflect neuropathology in frontal and temporal cortices.
 
I can tell you from experience that opiate addiction was a rat race every day needing the drug. Not able to function physically because my body was addicted to it. And when hi on opiates I found myself more in a oblivious state of mind. It was bad both before getting and then after.
Meth has taken me to a far out place as well. Because of sleep deprivation after so many days of no sleep. And I can run for a long time more than 10 days UP.. what happens is psychosis. It’s a horrible feeling because you believe what your brains telling you. Your lack of sleep totally takes your mind out of reality by pieceing together things that don’t go together. And so at that point I’m useless.
But after sleep. I’m back
To my original cognition.
just my experience..
 
I haven't read much beyond the abstract, but one thing that doesn't seem to have been taken into account is the mental health of participants. For me personally, my cognitive abilities are significantly more impaired when I'm going through a major depressive episode than they are after a meth binge. And most of the drug users I know (current and former) have mental-health issues.
 
Even without reading the abstract, I wouldve said immediately amphetamines are more damaging from personal experience alone. Opiates just arent a very mental drug. Never went into a psychotic hallucinatory state shooting heroin.
 
I already talked to my Psychiatrist because of that studies, because there are a few meanwhile. He told me he just knows that females are 3 percent more sayed to get Morbus Parkinson because of long term use of Amphetaminsulfate (even just therapeutically) than males (2 percent).

Who knows?

I'll for sure not stop taking it als long as I work because its my med that helps me.

There are such a lot of other meds that do muuuuch more harm to people but are prescribed a thousand times every day.

JJ
 
Well opiates don't cause any damage to any organs... of course if you're a junkie you might have a long-term issue with feeding yourself properly. And overdoses can cause brain damage if there is lack of oxygen too long.

On the other hand, stimulant abuse does cause damage, especially when it includes (as it usually does)< chronic sleep deprivation. Sleep deprivation is absolutely awful for you/ And tweaked usually have a variety of co-morbid factors including lack of nutrition, teeth hygiene and other self-care.

So probably tweakers, but it depends largely on the individual and the behavior, moreso than on the drug.
 
Well opiates don't cause any damage to any organs... of course if you're a junkie you might have a long-term issue with feeding yourself properly. And overdoses can cause brain damage if there is lack of oxygen too long.

On the other hand, stimulant abuse does cause damage, especially when it includes (as it usually does)< chronic sleep deprivation. Sleep deprivation is absolutely awful for you/ And tweaked usually have a variety of co-morbid factors including lack of nutrition, teeth hygiene and other self-care.

So probably tweakers, but it depends largely on the individual and the behavior, moreso than on the drug.

I have a lot of big problems with my sleep since childhood and can not remember when i slept through the whole night. So I smoke a Joint, this is the only MED ( and it is one!) that helps me such a lot with it. My Psych says rather smoke a joint then to eat Seroquel which is for sure not goot for my liver and kidneys.

Since yesterday I have Grass again and it's perfect - mostly I mix it with 25 mg Seroquel and I can sleep and have no problem to get up in the morning.

I know I wrote it anywhere here but I want to repeat it: TAKE CARE OF YOUR SLEEP!!
I read sometimes people are really proud to stay 6 nights awake but I can tell you what happended to me and I will never ever experience that again.

.

I did'nt take any drug besides Marijuana this time. My body was extremely tired from working but no chance - I'm not exaggerating, I had 3 nights without a minute of sleep just because of worrying and thinking about where he could be and and and ... Brainwanking.

The problem was, I went to work every day for 10 hours, and it is physically really exhausting.

On the third day I was at the practice and the only thing I can remember that I guided my patient into my therapy room. And then it was black immediately. When i woke up my colleagues were kneeing around me and crying and I had no clue what happend to me until they told me 10 times in a row "You had a big tonic-clonic-seizure that lasted 3 minutes" - FUCK! The ambulance was already here and took me to hospital where I had to stay a week - and I needed it . The first 3 days I couldn't even move anything because my muscles were so sore It was so awful.

I'm telling you this to show what sleep depriviation can cause. I could have been dead when I fell down and hit something with my head.

I read a lot about it and saw that sleep depriviation is today still used as a torturing method. I didn't now that.

So please people be careful, it was a mess!

JJ
 
That study seems biased to me... The dose, lifestyle and genetic factors probably play a bigger role than the drug itself. Plus the participants were all people who seeked treatment and counseling for drug abuse, that itself excludes all the functional drug users and the people who simply don't need/want to go to "classic" rehab for various reasons.
But amphetamine abuse combined with sleep deprivation and poor nutrition is almost certainly more damaging than opioid abuse, I can agree with that.

I do agree with this quote as well (at least partly) in the context of that particular study.
"The similarities between the current and former drug users are also consistent with the notion of pre-existing neurocognitive impairments in drug users, which predate drug taking and may represent vulnerability marker."
 
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As a former addict to crank for years and heroin for 13 years in my personal expiriance crank and coke fucked me more mentally then the gear ever did . The wildness of crank and coke the being out all the time not sleeping for days fucking any women you can pull not eating for days looking back I used to have mental breakdowns once in my truck I picked up a load in LA and cried all the way from Bakersfield to yuba city over nothing mentally i had enough. Compare that to my heroin years when i would smoke my gear come into lounge sit with wife watch a movie or listen to music and nod off. I will admit by the time i got on heroin my buisness had taken of i never worried about having brown it was always there also include the raw opium stock i never went without so not had all the shit of having to get money for the gear. But i think heroin gets in your bones more the physical addiction makes it hell to get off and once off the grip loosens but I will always have to be on my guard for life . Crank or the crystal p[eople smoke now makes you paranoid and you can spot a tweaker i got an outside job to pay for my heroin as a lorry driver, not one person knew about it they all thought I was a chilled out nice guy because of opium. But as a tweaker when i drove a semi I would try my hardest to act normal so the depot I picking my load up from would not notice and call police on me . I shudder now when i think of me driving a semi and trailer weighing 80 000 pounds down a highway tweaking of my nut 4 days without sleep. The mind goes crazy without sleep it needs sleep
 
I can tell you from experience that opiate addiction was a rat race every day needing the drug. Not able to function physically because my body was addicted to it. And when hi on opiates I found myself more in a oblivious state of mind. It was bad both before getting and then after.
Meth has taken me to a far out place as well. Because of sleep deprivation after so many days of no sleep. And I can run for a long time more than 10 days UP.. what happens is psychosis. It’s a horrible feeling because you believe what your brains telling you. Your lack of sleep totally takes your mind out of reality by pieceing together things that don’t go together. And so at that point I’m useless.
But after sleep. I’m back
To my original cognition.
just my experience..
I remember the days no sleep after day 5 you start to proper lose the plot
 
15 years of opiate addiction, suboxone for the past 8 years or so. Seems fairly fine. Used meth for about a month, yikes. Never again, acted so out of character and did/thought weird shit. I could never maintain using meth long term.
 
15 years of opiate addiction, suboxone for the past 8 years or so. Seems fairly fine. Used meth for about a month, yikes. Never again, acted so out of character and did/thought weird shit. I could never maintain using meth long term.
I’m really interested in the question of whether meth makes people act out of character or whether it just reduces inhibitions enough that people’s true character is revealed.

Personally I find I’m probably at my nicest when I’m high on meth and everbody I know who is an asshole on meth is just the same asshole when straight but just with the volume turned down.
 
As long as you don’t overdose and lose oxygen to the brain, I’m a firm
Believer opiates do not cause ANY long term permanent side effects.

as for meth, I’d say the opposite. I’ve used meth about 10 times and feel that’s caused more mental damage then years of Iv heroin abuse.
 
As long as you don’t overdose and lose oxygen to the brain, I’m a firm
Believer opiates do not cause ANY long term permanent side effects.

as for meth, I’d say the opposite. I’ve used meth about 10 times and feel that’s caused more mental damage then years of Iv heroin abuse.
you're insane. anyway just dont smoke spice you'll be fine. smoke weed, drop lsd and lsa + shrooms.
 
you're insane. anyway just dont smoke spice you'll be fine. smoke weed, drop lsd and lsa + shrooms.

its just my experience mate. I’ve abused opiates for years and I don’t feel I’ve lost much cognitive Ability.

benzos wrecked my anxiety and confidence,
Stimulants wrecked a lot
And alcohol well, that poison definitely does it’s number.

I did a college semester on heroin and got a 3.8 average GPA shooting up everyday
 
I’ve abused opiates for years and I don’t feel I’ve lost much cognitive Ability.
That’s interesting. Do you do work or other things that regularly require particularly high-level cognitive functioning?

My feeling is that maybe 10-20 % of my former mental abilities have been lopped off the top by stimulant use. Going about my regular daily life when sober I just don’t notice it and feel completely undamaged. It’s only when I come to do something that requires serious intellectual or creative effort that I feel something has been lost and that I’m not what I once was.
 
That’s interesting. Do you do work or other things that regularly require particularly high-level cognitive functioning?

My feeling is that maybe 10-20 % of my former mental abilities have been lopped off the top by stimulant use. Going about my regular daily life when sober I just don’t notice it and feel completely undamaged. It’s only when I come to do something that requires serious intellectual or creative effort that I feel something has been lost and that I’m not what I once was.

Maybe I can't look at it unbiasedly.

I like to think my ability to think critically and work intellectually to be pretty high functioning still.

My girlfriend has told me she thinks I've gotten dumber but she hasn't seen me sober in 2 years so who knows.

I mean a lot of my work is construction but that doesn't mean you don't have to think. I would be curious to see though if they could test it
 
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