Harm Reduction Which Is Safer??

[daddysgone]

Hi all
First off, mods if you feel this should be merged into a mega-thread then thats' fine.

There has been a lot of talk in this forum lately about micron filters (it's great that people are talking about these and using them).

Anyway, all this talk made me think of this question:
Which is a safer practice:
1-Shooting a pill that has been micron filtered using sterile equipment/water.
2- Simply crushing up the same pill and snorting it.

Now let's ignore the fact that it is easier to overdose when shooting something.
I just want to focus on what is safer in terms of what substances may make it into your bloodstream/lungs/organ etc.

At first glance most people would almost always assume that if you take any pill, injecting it would be far worse for you then snorting it.
However, I really wonder if this is still the case if you are micron filtering the pill in question.

If you micron filter a pill properly then it should (in theory) remove all insoluble particles as well as any soluble particles which are larger then the pores in the filter.

However if one were to simply crush up this pill and snort it instead, all of these particles enter your body, and I imagine many of these particles could end up in your lungs or other organs.

So, given all of this, Id love to hear some opinions about what would be "safer" from a harm reduction standpoint (and again, let's not consider the whole overdose concern for now).
Thanks-DG

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Good question, I've often wondered about the relative health risks of various ROAs.

I am still curious about which is objectively safer, but I imagine micron filtration then insufflating the solution would be safer than either alone.

 

[daddysgone]

Good question, I've often wondered about the relative health risks of various ROAs.

I am still curious about which is objectively safer, but I imagine micron filtration then insufflating the solution would be safer than either alone.

Yes, well obviously micron filtering and then insufflating would be safest of all....but that wasn't one of the options.

I am looking forward to hearing opinions as to which of the 2 routes of admin would safer. -DG

 

[IndustrialStrength]

Interesting question. Sadly enough not one I have an answer to.
I would think that the types of inactives and the size of there particles would affect the answer to your question thus complicating the situation.
I look forward to seeing the information that is produced regarding this.
Though not one of your choices I'm quite curious on a similar question.
That question being the safety of dissolving a pill in water or saline, cotton filtering and then administering as a nasal spray.
I know Cane mentioned something similar with the micron filtering then nasal administration,
However less people have microns than have cotton so this question is perhaps a bit more feasible for the general populace.
I don't mean to derail your original question but seeing as it's on a similar subject I thought I would throw it out there in the hope that I'd get some feedback on it.
Again it would likely vary from pill to pill.
Though the one I'm particularly keen on information on would be Oxymorphone as the method I described seems to work well for it.
I apologize if this additional question in anyway throws off your original question.
If that appears to be the case, feel free to ignore it or send information my way via PM as opposed to derailing the thread.
Regardless it's always nice to see a discussion that could lead to more information that would help increase the safety of substance consumption.
Hopefully we can get some factual based responses to your excellent question that will prove of use to the greater BL community.

 

[daddysgone]

Interesting question. Sadly enough not one I have an answer to.
I would think that the types of inactives and the size of there particles would affect the answer to your question thus complicating the situation.
I look forward to seeing the information that is produced regarding this.
Though not one of your choices I'm quite curious on a similar question.
That question being the safety of dissolving a pill in water or saline, cotton filtering and then administering as a nasal spray.
I know Cane mentioned something similar with the micron filtering then nasal administration,
However less people have microns than have cotton so this question is perhaps a bit more feasible for the general populace.
I don't mean to derail your original question but seeing as it's on a similar subject I thought I would throw it out there in the hope that I'd get some feedback on it.
Again it would likely vary from pill to pill.
Though the one I'm particularly keen on information on would be Oxymorphone as the method I described seems to work well for it.
I apologize if this additional question in anyway throws off your original question.
If that appears to be the case, feel free to ignore it or send information my way via PM as opposed to derailing the thread.
Regardless it's always nice to see a discussion that could lead to more information that would help increase the safety of substance consumption.
Hopefully we can get some factual based responses to your excellent question that will prove of use to the greater BL community.

Well, I can safely say that this is the most polite derailing of one of my threads that I've ever encountered.

No worries, while it is a bit off topic, I don't mind you asking your question in this thread as long as my original question doesn't get lost in the shuffle.

To answer your question, dissolving a pill in solution, filtering it through cotton, and then administering it as a nasal spray is unquestionably safer then simply snorting a crushed pill (though not as safe as micron filtering it and then using the the resulting solution as a nasal spray).

By filtering it through cotton you will be getting rid of a good amount of the insoluble and larger particles that ordinarily would make it into your body if you simply crushed and snorted.
The method you described is great, the only complication is when it comes to dosing. You have to be somehow figure out a precise way measuring so that you know how many mg's are in one "spray".
With injection its easier since you can read the units right on the syringe, but as you can imagine a nasal spray would be a bit more difficult to measure exactly.

Anyhow, I too am looking forward to hearing opinions regarding my original question. -DG

 

[Sweet P]

I don't think I can answer this either. Both methods have their risks.

I mean, pills are meant to be taken orally... not snorted or IV'd.

 

[daddysgone]

I don't think I can answer this either. Both methods have their risks.

I mean, pills are meant to be taken orally... not snorted or IV'd.

Yes, agreed-pills are meant to be taken orally.
But again, the fact is that people DO snort and shoot pills and Im trying to establish which of the 2 is safer (assuming a micron filter is used for shooting).

Any opinions?-DG

 

[LivingOnValium]

I'm really glad you brought this up DG! I've thought this one as well and never did figure out how approuch the subject via a smart enough "preface" to yield intelligent discussion instead of getting flamed. That's just limitations of beeing a non-native english speaker i guess..

Personally I think a daily injection habbit is so damaging to the veins it cannot be considered healthy.

However if that too is neglected like the OD factor I believe IV is the healthiest ROA there is (only if a filter of 0.22 micron pore size is used). Just avoiding the first pass metabolism takes some toll away from the liver.

 

[daddysgone]

I'm really glad you brought this up DG! I've thought this one as well and never did figure out how approuch the subject via a smart enough "preface" to yield intelligent discussion instead of getting flamed. That's just limitations of beeing a non-native english speaker i guess..

Personally I think a daily injection habbit is so damaging to the veins it cannot be considered healthy.

However if that too is neglected like the OD factor I believe IV is the healthiest ROA there is (only if a filter of 0.22 micron pore size is used). Just avoiding the first pass metabolism takes some toll away from the liver.

Yes, good point about the damage to the veins that would result from daily injections. But yes, lets ignore that issue (as well as the OD issue) for now, as I am really more concerned about what substances/particles end up in your body from either route of administration.

As far as the whole first pass metabolism goes, wouldn't both snorting and injecting both result in avoiding first pass metabolism? I would think both routes of admin. would lead to the drug being absorbed directly into the bloodstream. No?-DG

 

[phr]

Snorting will most likely be safer.

Yes, it's true that when you snort, chances are some of the product will end up in your lungs, but there are ways to diminish that. Snort smaller lines, don't inhale as hard as you can, and you can also dissolve it and use a mist spray.

As for the iv'ing after a micron filter, yes it's safer than if you didn't use that micron. But, even at .22, some particles will still get through. (There's at least one thread about this, if you're interested in more in-depth discussion. Sadly I don't have the link.) So, something will end up in your lungs. Also, the iv roa is inherently dangerous, with risks far beyond overdoses and improper filtering. Not to mention there's a higher risk of addiction and tolerance will rise faster.

 

[IndustrialStrength]

Snorting will most likely be safer.

Yes, it's true that when you snort, chances are some of the product will end up in your lungs, but there are ways to diminish that. Snort smaller lines, don't inhale as hard as you can, and you can also dissolve it and use a mist spray.

I've been using this mist spray method (cotton filtering the solution before putting it in sprayer) and it seems to be less irritating.
However, it does still seem to cause some irritation.
My sinus's and throat tend to get a bit sore and when I first wake up there is a definite dry/sore aspect.
I'd be curious as to just how much of a difference there is safety wise between snorting a crushed pill & the sprayer method.
Other than the size of the particles and the solubility of the particles is there any other factor I might be missing in figuring out the safety margins of the sprayer method?
Also from your comment, I'm curious; is using a dissolved spray inherently safer than using a crushed pill, even if the solution was not filtered.
Just hypothetical as I always cotton filter the solution but I'm still interested in the preceding question.
Regardless there seem to be some good points so far.
Looking forward to seeing what else develops.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I would insist it depends on the type of pill, and your skill at IVing.

I say this for two simple reasons.

I'm not sure if snorting substances with talc in it is all that great for you; it may be very damaging AFAIK; I don't want to say something incorrect.

However, if a pill has the right list of inactive ingredients, a micron filter should get them all out. There are some inactive ingredients that may not be completely removed from pills - the coloring agent in Suboxone, for sure is not removed.

If you have good skill at IVing, then it is possible that injecting after micron filtering is safer. If you know how to avoid hitting arteries, missing shots, and overall know when to not IV anymore, it might be safer for real.

That obviously would be ignoring the risk of missed shots, hitting an artery, etc. By ruling them out of the equation.

I am interested if anyone has concrete information about snorting inactive ingredients in pills.

I do know for a fact that if you snort pills enough then there's a possibility it will deviate your septum.

If I had to say one - or choose one - I would go with IV after micron filtering for my own personal health. I snorted way too much heroin over the course of a year, my nose needs no more damage as is.

I am still curious about which is objectively safer, but I imagine micron filtration then insufflating the solution would be safer than either alone.

Yes! I would tend to agree.

Micron filtering will remove harmful inactives like talc, and snorting after micron filtering would also be easier on one's septum; as water-lining without micron filtering is easier on the septum as-is, the micron filtering would be an additional layer of protection to your nose/lungs (potentially?) from inactive ingredients.

Between the two options DG ventured forth, and barring IV complications (which your option excludes as the ROA is insuffulation), then I would choose micron filtering and IVing, but your 3rd option would obviously be the safest (to avoid IV complications in the first place). Great idea!

As many drug users do not micron filter who IV anyways, I would have a hard time imagining anyone would micron filter and then snort anything. If someone on Bluelight does this, I would love to hear about it! I think micron filtering is great and I always push for IDU's to do so, especially when being every day injectors.

But, even at .22, some particles will still get through.

Though some inactive ingredients may be smaller than 0.22um in particle size, many are not. I recently checked the inactive ingredients on a pill that I sometimes IV, and realized only one inactive ingredient might get through, and ruled the rest of the others out (there were at least 10 or more inactive ingredients).

I have a hard time believing all pills have at least one or more inactive ingredient particles smaller than 0.22um in size.

Also from your comment, I'm curious; is using a dissolved spray inherently safer than using a crushed pill, even if the solution was not filtered.

Yes, the water helps the nasal lining I believe, so that there's less damage.

Also, without filtering, you cannot get all of the inactive ingredients. Some will be left behind. Crushing and snorting will cause nothing to be left behind.

So inherently, I believe snorting crushed pill power to be less safe than spraying a mist in the nasal cavity.

The idea behind why you wouldn't want to do this with heroin; it will acetylate. That's the only reason why people wouldn't water-line powder heroin. BTH must be water-lined due to the consistency of it from what I hear; I have only used powder heroin.

 

[Sweet P]

Yes, agreed-pills are meant to be taken orally.
But again, the fact is that people DO snort and shoot pills and Im trying to establish which of the 2 is safer (assuming a micron filter is used for shooting).

Any opinions?-DG

Ok, if I had to choose either snorting or IV'ing, I'd go with snorting. IV'ing can lead to collapsed veins, abscesses, and all those other nasties. Plus you'll probably get some amount of fillers and binders in your bloodstream, no matter how much you filter the substance. Snorting also has risks - damage to nasal tissue, etc. Make sure you chop it up real fine if you use that route.

 

[IndustrialStrength]

I've got another quick question that I believe falls in the scope of the thread.
Seeing as we seemed to have established if your going to go with nasal admin that nasal sprays or water lining are the ways to go.
Perhaps we can get some more information to increase the safety of those methods.
When it comes to making nasal sprays what are the advantages/disadvantages and/or reasons for using saline rather than water.
In terms of damage to the sinus's, chance of particles getting in lungs, etc.
Or perhaps even using a different substance to dissolve your DOC in.
Any thoughts or information on the matter?
I figure this information could be useful in preventing damage to ones sinus's, etc. & as such could be useful in terms of harm reduction.
Though I'll admit I also get something out of this as I was born with a deviated septum & have had a septoplasty when I was younger.
So avoiding any nasal damage I can seems to be for the best.

 

[phr]

Though some inactive ingredients may be smaller than 0.22um in particle size, many are not. I recently checked the inactive ingredients on a pill that I sometimes IV, and realized only one inactive ingredient might get through, and ruled the rest of the others out (there were at least 10 or more inactive ingredients).

I have a hard time believing all pills have at least one or more inactive ingredient particles smaller than 0.22um in size.

There's a fairly decent thread dedicated to this topic floating around. I'll try to dig it up.

Still, due to the unknown, and the seriousness of injecting such things, I stick to "snorting being safer."

 

[phr]

Here's two decent threads about it:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=344687
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=358955

And that's from like 2007/2008 when people said OD sucked. Pfft...