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Which drugs work best to induce ego loss, and how to they differ?

My idea of ego loss is not so much an idea of forgetting something (who I am, where I am.) as it is a matter of realizing that the 'I' is infinite, that it transcends all that is and all that ever was. The 'I' is so universal that it cannot exist. ...And 'I' am replaced by all.

LSD is the most reliable source of this type of experience.
 
Yup. high doses of lsd take me to a place where I feel "transparent" - as if my soul is bared in public, and others around me see all of my imperfections and dishonesties.
 
morninggloryseed said:

But I still can't see it (or MDMA) being the kind of entheogen capable of causing the kind of ego-loss 5-MeO-DMT or high-dose DPT trips do. I guess it just works differently for everyone.
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Ego loss has nothing to do with which drugs you've taken or whether or not you appear catatonic to outsiders. The only thing ego loss affects is your sense of identity. That means that I can carry on conversations, drive a bus, or buy cigarettes while experiencing ego loss, as long as I am not identified with this body's actions.

When you are identified with the universe, your body is a part of that universe, and you simply cannot help what it does. It's all interconnected and you are just observing what is happening in THIS-MOMENT, without changing it.

It just so happens that some drugs are very good at catalyzing this state. Why? Because you have these ideas, this identity, that consists of borders that you call reality. Some drugs change your perception of this reality so much that your sense of identity changes. Drugs that are very, very powerful at changing your perception will be very, very good at helping you change your identity. Like seeing a cube from two angles, I can suddently see the entire cube, the same is true of psychedelics and ego loss. Suddenly, by seeing reality from another angle, I suddenly see all of reality. It just so happens that some of these drugs also create catatonic states of the body, but if you were to experience ego-loss while not under the influence of said drugs, why would you appear catatonic? It is ONLY your sense of identity that has changed. The "I" in "I exist" could be interpreted as "I am the universe, and it-I exists." In other words, YOU are not catatonic, but the body you used to identify with is.

Ego loss doesn't occur gradually, it occurs instantaneously. If you think you are experiencing it, you are not experiencing it. You are NOT thinking during ego-loss, you may experience the passing of thoughts, but YOU are no longer identified with the thoughts, so YOU are not thinking. YOU only experience during this state. YOU may observe what YOU used to think YOU were as still doing things, but that is no longer YOU, so YOU are not doing them.

The catcher is, the only reason you aren't experiencing it right now is that you're trying to experience it. You want to experience? Stop trying. Lose yourself in this moment. If you are trying, you are trying to change this moment, without realizing that you are already in this moment. So you've lost the objective right at the beginning. Don't try to change this moment. But don't try to don't try either, for that also requires you to change this moment, and it requires the existence of the NEXT moment in which you try, so you see, you've lost the objective again! Completely give up on trying to change *anything*, and you'll have it. That includes trying to change your thoughts, trying to change your sense of self, trying to change your body's position, TRYING TO CHANGE YOUR DESIRE TO CHANGE. You simply must let everything happen. The only reason the stopping of thought of most medititative practices is helpful is because it is another angle to view the world from, and only helps you realize the whole picture. It is NOT necessary, because ego loss is ONLY A CHANGE IN IDENTITY.

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I almost forgot the original question. The drugs that work best for bringing this change about are those that provide radically different angles for viewing. Drugs that "fuck you up" a lot help the most. By "fuck you up" I mean "fuck up your current sense of identity." If you are currently identifying with your body, drugs that fuck up your physiology are best at changing that, though they may not completely destroy your sense of separateness from others. 5-MeO-DMT is an excellent example of this. On non-breakthrough experiences, users report being "the most fucked up I've ever been" but usually "still completely lucid, able to think about what is going on in a rational manner." This is a radical change in angular perception, but unless you breakthrough, you will only experience the angle, you will only experience "I'm so fucked up." Beceause THAT is the angle. Ego loss is no angle, or it is all angles. It is the absence of the angles, because you see from all of them. What does the concept of angle mean when you have no other viewpoints to compare it to?

In short (sorry for rambling :p, it just kills me that everyone gets it when its happening, but then they come out of it and explain it away in terms of their old self), ANY change in perception can facilitate this change of self. That could be reading a book, sipping some coffee, smoking some spirit powder, or chewing on some psychoactive molecules. It is only your interpretation that changes, and literally anything can cause you to realize it.
 
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re: modern usage

As far as I can tell, the modern use of the term "ego loss" is the same as saying "I got so fucked up I didn't even remember who, where, or what I was!"
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That seems to be the way most psychedelic users think of it. Personally, I think the feeling these people are describing is completely different from true ego-death which is a complex psychological mindset involving detailed dichotomies of the various layers of consciousness such as the ego, shadow, self, etc...

Whatever. I usually just ignore it... Its definitely not a battle worth fighting because you can't argue with someone over what they have experienced. They can misuse the label all they want, as far as I'm concerned. I'll wait for the meaningful conversations that actually touch on the essence of the term.

Edit: There seems to be some good stuff in the latter parts of this thread, actually.
 
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Ketamine and 2-CB... yeah definatly.... ketamine in a good way though.... 2-CB in a very frightening way, where you think your ego will never come back and you reached the peak of nothingness...
 
I first experienced ego loss after drinking 3 bottles of robitussin maximum cough syrup (I have no idea how much dxm that is). During the night, I came to a point where the only thing I was aware of was the fact that I wasn't aware of anything but the fact that I was aware (read that a couple of times until you get it).
I could not see, nor even visualize anything. I could not hear, smell, or taste. I could not, even if I tried, remember what it was to be me, nor to even be alive, or simply just to BE. I was alone in a void of emptiness that expanded on for eternity and I *knew* that I would be there forever, because I had no memory or concept of what it was to be anywhere else. Although it probably sounds horrible to common people, this experience was the closest I ever came to true happiness and ultimate freedom. It was then I realized that no matter how much I told myself that I didn't care about anything in life, there were always things I cared about subconsciously that kept me from becoming truly free of ego. But all of that was gone, it was as if I was dead and I believed it so fully that any care I had about anything was totally eradicated.

The only drug other than DXM that ever gave me ego-loss was 5-meo-DMT, although the sheer intensity of it eradicates even my awareness and I become as a file copied to the "dev\null" folder. I am now toying with the idea of training with local buddhist monks to use meditation as a tool by which I can achieve ego-loss without having to ingest copious amounts of drugs (not there is anything wrong with ingesting copious amounts of drugs ;) ).

on a related note, i've heard a couple of people refer to partial ego-loss. logic tells me that you're either in a state of ego-loss or you are not - thoughts?
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Correct, either you are experiencing ego-loss or you are still you, only telling yourself you are experiencing ego loss. I did not think to myself "I have no ego" when I had egoloss, I had to come to that conclusion later once I snapped out of it. During the experience there was no "I" to convince it was experiencing anything, it just was.
 
Ive had complete ego loss twice. Once off of 5-meo-dmt, and once off of amt and chronic. Ketamine can come very close. I once came close on mushrooms, but acid and mushrooms tend to enhance my ego. Maybe I havnt dropped enough acid to have the experience .
 
Not too long ago i took +200mg of dpt up the nose(after taking a pinch a few days earlier and thinking it was a dud, good god was i wrong). Anyway i believe i may have experienced ego loss, like someone said earlier things just go in and out. However i was in the back of a moving car most of the time and my friend driving was blasting shpongle, it was just overstimulation and i dont remember much but total confusion and chaos. My ego came back fast and i felt artifical.
 
ketamine is the only drug I have experienced complete ego loss on (IV'd), so I would say it is a very good drug for those looking to experience this.
DXM, LSD, 2-CB and DMT (DMT only tried for first time yesterday) have never brought me to ego loss, and none of the other drugs I have tried are likely to trigger such an event.
Personally, I'm surprised 2C-B has been mentioned, it didn't strike me as the sort of drug that could induce ego-loss, I guess I'm just unlucky..
 
re:

only lsd has the power to not only remove the ego.... but destroy a good chunk of it permanantly for the rest of your life.
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I think that's your ego talking, there...
 
On Salvia I've had what I believe is ego loss but it's debatable many people would say is ego change I guess.

I didn't exist any more but I was a chair. I had absolutely no knowledge of the entity that I was and only after the trip could I piece things together. As far as I was concerned, I'd always been a chair, things seemed wrong but the fact that I was a chair was something that definately wasn't wrong because I'd always been a chair and nothing had changed.

I had no recollection of ever taking a substance to alter my perception and how could I because chairs can't consume anything.

'I' didn't exist, 'I' never had existed, 'chair' did exist. In fact it wasn't even "I am a chair" it was more "The chair is"

Make sense? I guess not.

Nothing else has ever come anywhere near to that for me, I've always at least known that I was me even if I've not known where the fuck I was, how I got there or what was happening.

Craig
 
It seems that it is difficult to determine ego loss. In fact, this thread seems to have left me even more confused about what ego loss is.

So with this in mind, I will simply describe the drug experiences that I feel may be at least related to ego loss, keeping in mind that if some of the posts here are correct, I may have no idea what ego loss is:

LSD:
I have experienced what I refered to at the time as the loss of reality. At some points I was perfectly aware of everything around me but it seemed totally different at the time. Instead of thinking "Things just seem different because I am fucked up." I questioned the very existence of what I had always assumed previously real. On one occasion, while watching a movie, I felt that I was transported into the movie, and it became reality to me in the sense that I was no longer aware of the TV I was watching it on or any of my surroundings, but only what was happening in the movie, which I thought was really happening. This may not make much sense, but that is the best way I can describe the experience.

DXM:
Usually higher level DXM experiences are difficult for me to remember entirely, but I remember being in my own apartment and forgetting where I was, even though I could still see everything around me. Even at lower levels I have often felt a disconection from reality, like the real "me" is somehow watching myself go through reality, even though I am still aware of my enviroment and capable of communication with others.

Salvia:
I have very little experience with this, but I plan to explore it more. This drug has definitely taken away all previous concepts or memories of who I was. At some point, I was aware of "me" because I was terrified I was about to go someplace I had never been and did not know if I would come back from. But this fear might have only existed once reality started to come back. I was aware of my music, but not aware that it was my music, and I became a part of the music and intense visuals. It was something like a dream, but there was nothing familliar to associate with reality.

In my opinion the Salvia holds the most potential out of the limited experiences I have had. The majority of my LSD experiences in the past did not produce the experiences I described above and shrooms have yet to produce anything similar. DXM seems to hold alot of potential and has never been near as frightening as Salvia, but seems more confusing and harder to remember.
 
Call me gay but the first 1-3 times on low dose (1.2-1.7 gram) of mushie, i've had ego-softening I believe atleast happen or ego-loss. Which might of also accompanied the reason I thought it went for a "bad trip" for a while. Maybe thats the point of psychadelics. Now that my tripping has increased, my ego-loss experiences have decreased.
 
Of course most psychedelics can do this to a degree - 5MeO-DMT worked best in this respect for me
 
I'd say Ketamine. I've been on a few trip on Ketamine where first the outside world disappears, then the body (out of body experience), and in the last step the ego disappears. At that point there's no such thing as a "me", an "I" anymore, there's just consciousness. If done properly you can get there by snorting 200 mg of K, or injecting half of that.
 
mikeynl said:
If done properly you can get there by snorting 200 mg of K, or injecting half of that.
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I don't think the two are quite the same. I've snorted large amounts of ketamine, and it never gets me to the same places IMing it does. There is the whole "nor-ketamine argument" in that snorting it takes longer to get the ketamine into the CNS, and thus more is converted to nor-ketamine which is less entheogenic and more sedating. But there is no proof.

But my own experiences with IMed vs insufflated ketamine do show a marked difference in effect.
 
the first thing that comes to mind when i look in this thread is 5-meo-dmt. that is sadly enough the only psychedelic that has given me true ego loss. on a low dose of amt (~30 mg), i've snorted and then smoked 5-meo-dmt. the result was extroardinary. the slow subtle onset of snorted 5-meo together with the impact the smoked route gives was absolutely once in a lifetime (i'm sure it will happen again in the future although i have no intentions in trying again soon). first the outside world "fractaled" and became alive, after the second dose my world shattered into pieces and i became one together with everything, no ego or a thing existed in this place, only a complete new universe wich revolved around nothing. everything became nothing while nothing became everything. no words can explain this, it's just a feeling that one has to encounter to understand.
 
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