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when is a refugee not a refugee?

To get on to the topic of this thread, When is a refugee not a refugee, Macksta, can you answer me this.
The asylum seekers came to this country to escape persucation. Many from Afganistan to escape the Taliban. I have read a bit about what they got up to, and I would run as well.
But, now that the Taliban has no power anymore, can't these people go back home? If there is no threat to their lives anymore, they no not need to seek asylum.
The Government then finds that they are now not refugees, and sends them home. Human Rights groups then are up in arms about the Governments so called heartlessness of doing this.
I have no problem accepting people as Asylum Seekers, but if they no longer face danger in their home country, should they not be sent back home?
Just because they are here, does not mean we should let them stay because Australia can offer them a better life.
Your thoughts????
 
In response to that Russ, the following is a quote from a man who returned to Afghanistan after around 10 years exile:
"They told me it was safe, so I have come back. Now I am here there are no jobs, there is no food and people around me are dying. What is freedom if it can't feed my family?"
When I read that, it kind of put in to perspective what these people go through. It is easy for you or I, comfortable middle class people in Australia to say 'why don't they just go back' but what are they going back to?
 
Oopz, the Aboriginals imigrated here themselves, thousands of years ago as well. Now, I don't want to start a race debate, as this is not what this thread is about.
Sure Bossdog, times are hard in Afganistan. As they are in many other places in the world. But hard times are not the point of Asylum Seekers. They have to go back, and work hard at rebuilding their country. Do we take Afganistans into our country becuase they are poor?
This is heading into social issues that are way beyond my knowledge.
If they are found not to be refugees, do they deserve to be here?
 
Papermate: I'm not going to provide a bibliography because quite frankly I can't be fucked :) . Suffice to say all my information is in the form of statistical or empirical evidence that can be quantitatively checked using figures from the UN website, Edmund Rice advocacy centre or wherever. I guess if anyone wants to dispute my figures then they can present their own evidence to the contrary, otherwise they stand.
Just in regards to Afghanistan, the Taliban may have been toppled from power, but lawlessness and anarchy reign supreme over much of the countryside. Protection afforded by the international peace keeping mission there stops on the outskirts of Kabul, and petty warlords rule much of the rest of the countryside, carving it up into their own little fiefdoms.
The new Vice-President Haji Qadir was assassinated in July if memory serves me correctly, and President Hamid Karzai was very lucky to survive an assasination attempt where a gunman sprayed the car he was travelling in with bullets.
Afghanistan is most definitely not a safe place to return to yet.
Interestingly though there is no such thing as an 'economic refugee'. That is, you cannot claim asylum as a refugee because of economic hardship. However, the government cannot repatriate refugees (who fled political persecution say) if in doing so they would be jeopardising their lives or putting them in a position of danger (poor economic conditions, lack of infrastructure etc could constitute this).
 
The federal governement chooses to see it in the way that will keep them popular.They don't care about the facts or what's right,they care about being popular.
 
This may or may not be relevant, but I'll add it anyway.
A refugee is a person who is forced to flee their country due to persecutionon the basis of race, religion, nationality or political alligiance.
An asylum seeker asks for protection in another country while their case is being processed.
Then there is a displaced person, who has to flee to another part of their own country.
I got this information from Medicins Sans Frontières newsletters.
MSF had an exhibition recently in Perth, showing ten articles that ten refugees had handed over to them. Each had the opportunity to tell their story behind each object. One Afghani man handed over his threadbare shoes which he walked for 20 hours in. A Chechian woman had the keys to her house that had been burnt down by the time she returned home.Their stories were enough to bring tears to your eyes.
I should also add that Afghanistan does not have an Australian embassy, therefore asylum seekers cannot apply for visas and have no choice but to jump the invisible queue.
I am glad that bluelighters have enough logic to see beyond John W Howard's rhetoric and show a humanitarian ethic, which has been lacking in a lot of other website discussion forums in recent times, especially here in Perth.
 
Macksta: You my friend, are a fucking champion. That's summed up the vast majority of what I would have said, and far better researched, and more eloquently to boot. Represent!
Russ: The point is, that they are human beings, and they have free will, hence they should not be forced to do anything. Human rights dictate that you have some level of freedom, as opposed to being arbitarily shifted about like chess pieces.
They are human beings. Not political pawns. Respect their rights with empathy, because if you were in their position you had better fucking tell me you would NOT want, nor accept being locked up in a cage indefinately, until you were deported, especially if you were fleeing from death and imprisonment and torture. We are supposed to be a nation of civilised people, a pity we don't vote or act like one.
-plaz out-
 
Sadly :( the majority in this country have become selfish and gulliable fools by NOT wishing to treat these people in an humane way.And for believing the liars feed to us by the federal government.(
Also, when finding out they have been liared to NOT caring eg: "The false children being thrown overboard claim which even the federal government has admitted NEVER happened" - What has happened to our standards and our own self respect????????
Thankfully :) ,NOT all of us have become the above.Such as many on this board("You know who are :) ") and myself :) :) .
[ 09 January 2003: Message edited by: Wacky ]
 
Hey Eddi, just hypothetically speaking, you happened to be writing an essay on this topic, or simply wanted to read up on the issue of current governmental policy on asylum seekers in Australia, you may wish to check out the below links:
full text of the UNHCR 1951 convention to which Australia is most definately (empirically speaking ;) ) a signatory.
Refugee Council of Australia (an NGO)
Australian Human Rights Centre (Austlii)
Refugee Rights Action Network (an offshoot of ISO, i think)
DIMA, Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs
WakenHut (Parent company of Australasian Correctional Management Services) WakenHut is now apparently owned by 'Group4' who also run the detention centres in the UK.
Refugee Review Tribunal
Amnesty International (Australia)
Hell, the list could go on.
hope something in there interests you.
:)
[ 09 January 2003: Message edited by: Trillian ]
 
Plaz, let me just state, that I have no problem with Australia accepting Refugees. In fact, I think we should accept more, and they should NOT be locked up in a cage.
But if they arrive in Australia illegally, they are breaking the law, and therefore give up a certain amount of their "free will". Our laws make this country what it is today. The laws are there to protect you and me my friend, and without sticking to them, our society can turn to shit.
Not every person who arrives in Australia in a genuine refugee. We need some sort of system to sort out the people that need genuine help from the criminals. And if they are found out to be not who they say they are, fuck them off!!!
 
Originally posted by Wacky:
The federal governement chooses to see it in the way that will keep them popular.They don't care about the facts or what's right,they care about being popular.thats why they sit for 90days or less(most dont turn up!)and campaigen for 250days or more(election years see an increase in campaigning activities!)
[all figures from memory and are likely marginally inacurate]
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and also....
Trillian

your a fucking star also....
no essay or nothing, just canvassing for opinions- because i was sick of my narrow minded take on this. you cannot imagine how pleased i am to have my "internet buddies" educate me on the issue...and for me to now have such a better understanding of WTF is going on in my country.
you guys all rock.
 
*shrug* this is unpopular but:
I really like my country, I really like what it values and stand for, and basically, I'm scared that an influx of refugees from a different culture could have an affect on the country that I wouldn't like.
I think multiculturalism is a great thing, and is what makes Australia so great. I think Australia is made up of all the good things of all the cultures that have become part of it.
I guess I'm scared of what could become socially acceptable in this country if the culture base was to shift dramatically. I think my biggest fear is there being another major religion in this country for people to be fanatical about. It's bad enough I have to deal with fucking christians and all their fucked ideals without having a large population of fanatical muslims around. Having said that, I believe that most people coming here as refugees would be freeing fanatical muslims, so that could be quite a mute point.
If someone comes to this country, and embraces the ideals and beliefs that we have, well, not even embrace, but accept, then I don't really have any issues. My fear is waking up in 30 years time to see homosexuality banned because it is abhorrant in the eyes of whatever god you believe in.
I'm just a simple human, with simple emotions. I'm not scared of people coming to this country, but I am scared of the things I love about this country being destroyed. I could be, and probably am, over-reacting and being irrational, but I am who I am and reading things being put intelligently helps me to make up my mind on this issue.
I'll continue to sit firmly on the fence, both sides of the argument have merit IMO and need to be discussed.
 
With regards to the Afghanistan issue, yes the Taliban has been ousted. However, this changes conditions very little outside the capital of Kabul. Women are still opressed, warlords continue to hold the monopoly on power and members of the new government are backed by opium interests. While the Bush administration chanted the mantra of not turning back on the Afghani people and placed emphasis on their liberation, it failed to include ANY foreign aid for the country in its 2003 budget. Congress later scraped together $300 million independent from the executive branch. However, this ammount is hardly significant, especially when you consider that Australia gives Indonesia around $160 million a year in aid... and we don't even really like their regime.
All in all.. Military action within Afghanistan left the place with a lot more craters, prevented humanitarian organisations like oxfam and red cross from trucking food in, and generally failed to change a whole lot. Not mentioning a rather conspicuous failure to nail Osama, who still seems to be hiding somewhere with his sat phone and kydney dialysis machine mailing scary videotapes to the world. Generally however, these issues somewhat lack media coverage at the moment because we have a shiny new war now and this time the guy actually has his own country we can bomb so its heaps easier for all involved... Bah, I am blathering.
It is correct however, that conflict in Iraq is going to cause massive refugee problems that Australia is not geared to deal with under present policy. There are serious ethical problems with waging wars on nations re: Afghanistan/Iraq, then consequently not accepting the predictable and resultant civillian refugees such a conflict will generate.
But if they arrive in Australia illegally, they are breaking the law, and therefore give up a certain amount of their "free will". Our laws make this country what it is today.
While I appreciate the sentiment behind your thoughts, this statement is a common misconception. According to the refugee convention Australia signed, we HAVE to accept asylum seekers and process their claims of refugee status. Hence, there is no such thing as an 'illegal' entry to Australia if you are claiming asylum, and therefore no laws are being broken. If ones claim is processed and deemed not to warrant refugee status, then one is 'illegal' and fit for deportation. Australia places all such people claiming to seek asylum in mandatory detention while their claims are processed. The issue here is that some people in these places have been waiting months/years for an answer, in limbo, with absolutely no legal status as a person. This can legally continue indefinetly... Can you imagine how you would feel if say, you were stuck in what is effectively a medium security prison for 6 months to a year for entirely no crime? This raises other issues... Remember the recent detention centre fire where there was a riot and several buildings got torched? Those suspected of being involved were moved to a maximum security prison. Since they legally do not even exist in this country, rights like a trial or legal consul does not need to be supplied to them, so its straight to the real gaol... Again, indefinetly.
Australia is almost alone in this somewhat unusual approach to treating asylum seekers, and really, it grates on our lofty self image as a nice democratic liberal nation.
[ 24 February 2003: Message edited by: -Thoth ]
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when australia signed onto The "United Nation's Convention On Refugees" -1951. the then government could have had NO idea that one day people would actually arrive on our shores in ricketty boats, prepared to drown or enter australia!!
 
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