What will the radical left do after the Trump win
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q.e.d.
SS, what are your definitions of the words "male" and "masculine"?
in your world, there's no such thing as a feminine male? or a masculine female? does your dictionary just not contain the words "feminine" and "masculine"?
alasdair
I'm not interested in semantics, especially when it is being used in an ideological way to go against what is self-evident.
To continue from my previous sentence in relation to these snippets. Time after time in the 20th century we have interfered with nature, thinking we are even in a position to bend it to our will, and every single time it has come back and kicked our ass. This will be no different, and I'm slightly amazed at the hubris of everybody overlooking this simple point. We're not talking about other species or aspects of the natural world that we can just fuck up, forget about, and then tell as educational talking points at school in a semi-comedic fashion. We're talking about potentially polluting the psychology of the next generations of the human species, which in turn may further negatively impact the rest of the natural world as our psychology continues to degrade and we make more and more foolish decisions as a consequence.
We can already see the tremendous damage other cultural ideologies and technologies have done to young people. As a millennial straddling the old world and the new, I'm keenly aware of it that, I spend a lot of time thinking about it, and to a degree most of my cohort, who probably haven't spent more than 30 seconds thinking about it, are not.
We're talking about 'educating' children when we are still ignorant to our own psychology. Look at that paper someotherguy linked and the language used there. This is ideologically driven projection, not science, not thorough scientific subjective investigation into the workings of our psychology as a contemplative mystic might engage in. It's just fluff, driven by feelings and wishful thinking. Which is fine as an adult, if you want to entertain such fluff, but leave the children alone for fucks sake. This stuff has absolutely no merit and therefore absolutely no business being introduced into the psychology of impressionable children who will run with anything you put in front of them.
You can not vote your way to sanity or psychological understanding. You can not demand nature bend to fit your preconceptions. Attempting to do so will always backfire - no one so far has even acknowledged the point about suicide rates amongst the trans community.
But you're arguing semantics, and using it in an ideological way
Semantics:
The study or science of meaning in language
right.
tl;dr "i don;t have a problem with my use of semantics. i only have a problem with your use of semantics"
alasdair
tl;dr "i don;t have a problem with my use of semantics. i only have a problem with your use of semantics"
alasdair
Nope. There is nothing ideological about their being two biological sexes, and consequently two sexual genders. Constructing imaginary genders and then attempting to project that backwards on to the word gender, in a deliberate attempt to redefine a psychological facet (sexuality) which has its ultimate roots in biology.. that is ideological.
The notion of gender being a malleable social construct is ideological. It has no basis. There is no hard science, only whimsical 'social science' and loose psychological analysis, nothing that can stand up to the indisputable reality of there being only two biological sexes throughout the entire biological kingdom. It is purely a mental construct, and given that is true, without any rigorous psychological understanding it is about as valid as an imaginary reverie. It is human projection, and while one is quite entitled to enjoy the fruits of their own projections that is where they should stay.
The expression of genders is rooted in biology, and like everything else in neuropsychology the behaviors of gender expression exists on a spectrum. There are plenty of papers that show that which you have written off as sophistry
"nothing that can stand up to the indisputable reality of there being only two biological sexes"
right. i don't think anybody here disagrees with this.
"Constructing imaginary genders and then attempting to project that backwards on to the word gender"
ok. so define "gender"?
alasdair
right. i don't think anybody here disagrees with this.
"Constructing imaginary genders and then attempting to project that backwards on to the word gender"
ok. so define "gender"?
alasdair
Depends on which culture you come from. Native Americans always had multiple genders as one example. They wherent really hung up on it like Europeans
brokedownpalace10
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Again. What are you calling "being immersed in a culture that is exposing them to a pernicious idea"?
Do you believe that Trans folk don't have a right to live their life openly? Are you saying that they need to hide the very idea of men living as women and vise versa from "the children" since simply being exposed to that would cause them to have, "gender confusion".
You need to trust your kids more.
You'd still love them even if they were trans, right?
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This isn't anything concrete, it's a cursory surface level interpretation of what can be seen. The exterior, not the interior (mind). It doesn't (and can't) say/provide us with anything that is occurring at the mental level, and for that reason while it is useful anthropological data to fit into the complete picture of understanding we can't jump the gun and make deductive conclusions based on that surface level interpretation. It's a starting point, not the end point.
There are numerous tribes and cultures all over the Earth, many extinct and/or culturally purged by Christian missionaries, who demonstrated remarkably different modes of being, and not just in relation to sex. One shouldn't make the mistake of projecting a degree of 'exotic' or romanticising these people though; while we are 'hung up' and definitely neurotic in the modern world that doesn't mean those cultures who operated differently are automatically sane, healthy, or fully unfolded as human beings. It's like the romanticism of Eastern religious systems in comparison to the West. We have to examine these things more, not just get blinded by the emotional appeal when we see something working better than what we have.. those system may be neurotic or flawed in their own way too.. these things require much further investigation.
Why do you immediately jump to this dark conclusion? Is this just American sensationalism breathing through you or what? I have said absolutely nothing about people not having the right to their life, and multiple times I've mentioned the freedom of an adult making their own choices. There is no need for witch hunting or any such nonsense. My whole position is about getting to a greater understanding first, not oppression or violence; included in that though is the notion that exposing children to potentially damaging mental ideas is a form of violence.
This isn't 1900. Just because I see transgenderism as a mental illness does not mean I (or we) shall be throwing these people into institutions or pulling parts of their pre-frontals out through their eye sockets.
Flip this around, I was asked what am I so afraid of here.. but why are you (everyone) so afraid of examining the possibility that it might actually be a mental illness? Especially today when the stigma attached to 'mental illness' has now almost completely evaporated, and it is seen as a health malady and not some personal moral defect or shortcoming as it was 100 years ago. Here's what I think, I think people are afraid to confront the idea because as we alluded to above (neurotic attitude to sex in the West) we place an overemphasis on sex in relation to our personal identity and are actually still ashamed of it, still not quite sure about our true relation to sex itself. We have romanticised it to a neurotic level, and because it forms the basis of both our cultural and personal mental structure we can't stomach the idea that we might still be largely ignorant of how it actually works. We cling to sex, as we currently understand it, because we are afraid that we are not in control of it- is this not an accurate description of the Western scientific mind state generally, with our attempts to 'conquer' nature rather than try to understand it first?
The treatment for the causes of transgenderism is hormone replacement therapy. I've explained that previously yet you continue to talk about it being a mental health issue while ignoring the current standard of treatment
This conversation has revolved around essentially zero evidence and pretending words have different meanings. Its absurd
This conversation has revolved around essentially zero evidence and pretending words have different meanings. Its absurd
This is predicated on the assumption that hormones are the cause of it, that the hormonal system is superior to the mind, as assumed by the prevailing materialist scientific paradigm that places materiality above any notion of non-material (mind, psychology, a soul, etc). There is a relationship between mind and hormonal system, and between the heart-brain-mind-hormonal system, and I reject the assumption it is a one-way street of hormonal system governing mind.
Hormonal treatment is thus treating symptoms, and not cause. Typical of the current scientific medical paradigm, especially the branches of psychology and psychiatry, which look to mask symptoms with chemicals rather than digging for root causes.
Superior to the mind? That makes no sense at all. These hormonal processes are a large part of what drives neuronal development. The wiring of the brain and the regulation of proteins and signaling molecules is what creates the mind. Its absurd to think that somehow the "mind" would have power over the things that make it up. Based on literally 0 evidence. If you can provide studies I'm happy to read them.
If the mind was not effected by hormones, or any other biomolecules that make up the system underlying it, then drugs would not have an impact. We would not be able to measure changes in behavior due to drugs and genetics.
You're making things up to try and back up a nonsense argument based around misunderstandings of basic concepts.
You're making things up to try and back up a nonsense argument based around misunderstandings of basic concepts.
As I said, I dispute this. The mind is not the sum product of the hormonal system, there is a dynamic relationship between the two and the mind sits superior to the hormonal system, not the other way round as you (science) currently assumes it is.
This is an impasse, because you want evidence according to your (materialist science) standards. I can't provide that. I'm stating my opinion and belief on the matter, you are stating yours, and that's where this discussion will end because I'm not going to go round in circles with you arguing over proof through the narrow predefined lens of materialist science. The realm of mind is not touched by our current scientific paradigm so there is nothing to offer up, according to your demands.
I didn't say the sum product of the hormonal system I said that the hormonal system is in part what controls where neurons go and how they develop, this is creating the circuits which underlie the entire operation of the brain
We make decisions before we are consciously aware of them, our consciousness is not us making decisions but rather becoming aware that we have made a decision
If you were actually correct about the mind somehow being separate from the brain then how do mental health issues happen at all?
You're going around claiming that transgenderism is a mental health issue, which are issues with the brain based in biochemistry and physiology, yet then you go around claiming that the mind somehow has power over the brain and behavior?
Its an absurd claim which you back up with absolutely nothing besides your own assumption that your viewpoint is correct. Not once have you offered a single shred of evidence for any of your claims while claiming that everything you don't agree with is somehow wrong.
None of your claims make any logical sense whatsoever.
We make decisions before we are consciously aware of them, our consciousness is not us making decisions but rather becoming aware that we have made a decision
If you were actually correct about the mind somehow being separate from the brain then how do mental health issues happen at all?
You're going around claiming that transgenderism is a mental health issue, which are issues with the brain based in biochemistry and physiology, yet then you go around claiming that the mind somehow has power over the brain and behavior?
Its an absurd claim which you back up with absolutely nothing besides your own assumption that your viewpoint is correct. Not once have you offered a single shred of evidence for any of your claims while claiming that everything you don't agree with is somehow wrong.
None of your claims make any logical sense whatsoever.
brokedownpalace10
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Mmm. Well, I'm just trying to determine just how you see "protecting the children" from the "potentially damaging mental idea" that people can be transgender would work.
How, exactly, are we to protect the children from this?
Because, it's being used to "other" the person. There are a lot of things that are a "mental illness", they aren't 100% perfect coping mechanisms... and they're no big thing, definitely not our business. If a person overeats when stressed, that's a "mental illness" of sorts. It's not perfect coping. If the person is not overweight it's not a big thing and even if they are, it's none of our business. We have no right to force them to seek help and definitely no right to tell them to hide their issue.
mal3volent
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Given gender is a social construct, do you think it's fair that it is considered to be protected in the same way as race, ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation etc? Should things that are essentially personality choices and expressions be weighted the same as immutable, fundamental characteristics of a person present since birth?
By not exposing them to the idea in the first place. If it is a mental illness and/or a mental contagion, then there is no sense in confusing and terrifying otherwise healthy children about it. Like with 'demons' and other medieval hysterias, the solution is not to speak these things into existence in the first place but to come to a true understanding of the underlying malady and then apply solutions to those who are afflicted when encountered.
But this is a separate issue, the issue of stigma, which is not the fault of the afflicted at all but actually an issue of those projecting their judgement.. and that is something to be tackled separately, through better understanding and awareness (in the judging party). We should not seek to treat the symptom, protecting the judged, but treat the cause (the judging party).
It's not about hiding or forcing. We are all in this together. If it is a mental illness and/or contagion, then it is our duty to get to the bottom of the truth about it so we can then help those who are afflicted. Not out of a sense of puritanical moral imperative, but just as human beings wanting others to be healthy and happy. But the underlying point is, the truth is the truth, regardless of how uncomfortable it may make us (or an afflicted person) feel, and we have to face it from that direction.
I keep saying I don't hate these people, perhaps I should also state I despise the attitude of the 'puritanical moral imperative' that seems to pervade many who ride on the criticisms of transgenderism (or homosexuality, etc). I'm interested in the truth, and in true well-being for the individual. If people choose to want to remain in their afflicted state as it were, that is their choice.. people have a right to refuse treatment.. but what I fundamentally do not agree with is those within that community who wish to forcibly push their state on to otherwise healthy people, especially children.
Like overweight people as you mention, or suicide rates amongst children, these are all ultimately symptoms of a sick culture itself. We owe it to each other to try and figure this all out, otherwise what the hell are we doing as humans anyway?
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