• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

What the fuck means therapeutic doses of amphetamine doesn't cause neurotoxicity???

I have read at least one journal article that states that Adderall completely loses its effectiveness as an ADHD medicine after being taken for 8 years straight. To me, this finding would indicate that Adderall causes significant neurotoxicity after being taken for 8 years at therapeutic levels--that is, if you want to define "neurotoxicity" in some meaningful way.
 
"Neurotoxicity" refers to the death of neurons caused by exposure to some substance. That is a very meaningful definition. Adderall losing its effectiveness after 8 years, even if it were an established and accepted phenomenon, *might* be caused by neurotoxicity, but it seems far more likely that it would be caused by non-neurotoxic plastic changes associated with tolerance. When an SSRI stops working in someone with depression, we don't conclude that the reason is that the SSRI was neurotoxic, so I don't understand why that reasoning would be employed here.

Is this the study you are referring to: 1. Wood AJ, Elia J, Ambrosini PJ, Rapoport JL. Treatment of attention-deficit–hyperactivity disorder. New England Journal of Medicine. 1999;340(10):780–788. ? It is the only 8 year longitudinal study I know of that looked out outcomes for ADHD kids. Given their outcome measures and the details of their regression analysis, they didn't actually find that stimulants lose their effectiveness after 8 years, although this study is periodically cited for that claim. Instead, looking at treatment outcomes like arrests, family problems, mood disorders, etc., it found that there wasn't a relationship between duration of stimulant therapy and outcome, and that the best predictor of outcome was psychotherapy. Well, duh. Also they concluded: "We think it very unlikely that mental health therapy iatrogenically worsened outcome. In none of our regression equations did duration of stimulant therapy predict outcome or appear to serve as a marker for severity."


Evidence that long-term psychostimulant therapy maintains efficacy:

1. Charach A, Ickowicz A, Schachar R. Stimulant Treatment Over Five Years: Adherence, Effectiveness, and Adverse Effects. Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry. 2004;43(5):559–567. doi:10.1097/00004583-200405000-00009.

2. Safer DJ, Allen RP. Absence of tolerance to the behavioral effects of methylphenidate in hyperactive and inattentive children. The Journal of Pediatrics. 1989;115(6):1003–1008. doi:10.1016/S0022-3476(89)80759-0. [note -- covers methylphenidate rather than amphetamine; shows effectiveness maintained for over a decade]
 
The word neurotoxicity is thrown around too much and I believe that therapeutic dosing of amphetamine is not genuinely neurotoxic. As someone said, just becuase someone taking say 30mg of amphetamine daily for 8 years it eventually looses its effectiveness can't be blamed on neurotoxicity but more on neural plasticity. If someone who had genuine ADHD and was taking their therapeutic dose for years, essentially they are only bringing themselves back to what is considered normal in terms of brain activity/blood flow (whatever the problem is) and therefore it shouldnt be neurotoxic.
 
^^That isn't necessarily the case either. A pretty good review of this issue can be found here: Advokat C. Literature review: Update on amphetamine neurotoxicity and its relevance to the treatment of ADHD. Journal of Attention Disorders. 2007;11(1):8–16.

The old conventional wisdom was that in therapeutic doses typically prescribed, taken orally and never in extended 'binge' style durations, psychostimulants are not neurotoxic, while at the large doses taken for recreational purposes, they are. This was supported by years of clinical observations and a slew of animal studies indicating that extremely large doses of methylphenidate given to animals (mostly rodents) for quite some time produces very minimal brain damage. It was largely assumed that this was also true of the amphetamines when taken therapeutically. The studies that showed that amphetamine was seriously neurotoxic involved continuous IV administration of doses greater than 15 mg/kg/day for several days. Their results were not believed to be generalizable to typical clinical use in humans of doses in the .1-.5mg/kg range, once or twice a day, orally.

Recently, things have change. First, with the recognition of adult adhd, prescribed doses increased, sometimes up to almost 1mg/kg. Further, both to curb abuse and to extend treatment coverage, long-lasting formulations were designed. Several recent studies have attempted to simulate those conditions in animals (now including primates). As long as doses are under 15mg/kg per day, or the duration limited to three days or less, rats only suffer short-term dopamine depletion, avoiding actual damage to dopamine nerve terminals. Unfortunately, it turns out that primates in general are more susceptible to amphetamine neurotoxicity than rodents. In baboons and squirrel monkeys, doses as small as .67mg/kg, administered twice daily for 4 weeks significantly reduced striatal dopamine concentration, transport density, and vmat sites:

Here we demonstrate that amphetamine treatment, similar to that used clinically for adult ADHD, damages dopaminergic nerve endings in the striatum of adult nonhuman primates. Furthermore, plasma concentrations of amphetamine associated with dopaminergic neurotoxicity in nonhuman primates are on the order of those reported in young patients receiving amphetamine for the management of ADHD.
Source: Ricaurte GA, Mechan AO, Yuan J, et al. Amphetamine Treatment Similar to That Used in the Treatment of Adult Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder Damages Dopaminergic Nerve Endings in the Striatum of Adult Nonhuman Primates. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2005;315(1):91–98. doi:10.1124/jpet.105.087916.

Does that mean therapeutic doses in adult humans are neurotoxic? Well, maybe. On the one hand, we are more similar to baboons than rats, so ceteris paribus what is true for baboons is more likely to be true for us than what is true for rats. On the other hand, there is no consistent evidence that people who have been treated with psychostimulants for the entire lives are more likely to develop parkinsonism or other related neurological impairments. It is plausible though that we might miss this, for a variety of reasons, the main being that there is no longitudinal study that tracks people who have been chronically treated with psychostimulants their entire lives. Of course, even if we did have evidence of that, it wouldn't necessarily mean that the amphetamine was neurotoxic; it could simply be the result of the same underlying dopaminergic dysfunction that was behind the ADHD.

In short, there is a lot we don't know, and it is an extremely complicated puzzle, but there is reason to be concerned:

At present, the reason for the apparent contradiction between results in primates, showing neurotoxic effects of low-dose AMPH, and those in rats, showing neurotrophic effects, is not apparent. However, recent neuroimaging studies in ADHD-diagnosed humans may be relevant. Several reviews have described an elevation of the striatal dopamine transporter (DAT) availability in children and adults with ADHD (Madras, Miller, & Fischman, 2005; Spencer et al., 2005; Volkow, Wang, Fowler, & Ding, 2005). Moreover, after methylphenidate treatment DAT availability is lowered in both children and adults (Krause, la Fougere, Krause, Ackenheil, & Dresel, 2005 and references therein; Madras et al., 2005; Spencer et al., 2005). Relationships between DAT density and treatment response to MPH have also been observed. Decreased DAT binding has been associated with a positive treatment response, whereas low DAT availability did not “seem to respond to therapy with MPH” (Krause et al., 2005). Unfortunately, such results may be confounded by the fact that, depending on the time between stimulant administration and the neuroimaging procedure, a portion of the decreased binding could be because of MPH occupation of DAT sites rather than DAT downregulation. It must also be kept in mind that primate and rodent models do not “have” ADHD. Nevertheless, comparisons of individuals treated with MPH or AMPH as children, with those who were not given stimulants, might be informative. Somewhat surprisingly, the “effects of repeated therapeutic doses of amphetamine on DAT density in living human brain are unknown” (Madras et al., 2005, p. 1403).

In summary, recent pharmacological developments, of long-acting AMPH formulations coupled with clinical developments in the diagnosis of ADHD, raise new questions about the neurobiological effects of stimulant therapy. Answers to these questions may not only be relevant for understanding the etiology, therapy, and treatment of ADHD but could also have broad implications for our concepts of the general processes that mediate behavioral and intellectual development.
Source -- the conclusion of the 2007 review article I mentioned initially (pp. 15-16).

Given all of the evidence, while it is premature to say anything too definitive about the existence/nature/extent of the neurotoxicity of therapeutic doses of amphetamine, from a harm reduction standpoint, it makes sense to presume that they are somewhat neurotoxic and make decisions accordingly.
 
As far as I know, no. Just because you're tolerant to amphetamine doesn't raise the threshold where damage happens.

I really like this and think this is important. In my experience this fact is not obvious at all to most average or even educated users.

I learnt fast that tolerance only seems to build up for the good effects and not for the side effects or damage/risks etc.

So true in my experience and its very unfortunate and should always be kept in mind. This is a good reason to manage and lower tolerance, even with other drugs if needed, as it could relate directly to your level of risk and damage.
 
As per the creeping, and not to sound pollyanna about the subject, but I've always wondered if extreme coffee / caffeine consumption...along with dehydration and adrenal fatigue...is neurotoxic. Perhaps not 'significantly'...but still...thanks for reading my meager 2cents.


i read a study saying that coffee prevents neurogenesis...which is the growth of new brain cells. i don;t know if that qualifies as neurotoxic though :/
Here is the study. I have no idea how reliable it is :/

http://jtoomim.org/brain-training/han2007-caffeine-hurts-learning.pdf
 
Interesting, and neurogenesis is supposed to be a common mechanism of antidepressants.

hmmm so i wonder what would be happening in the hippocampus if your taking an antidepressant and drinking coffee regularly. aka my brain daily. maybe the caffeine would stop the antidepressant from working, or the ssri would counteract the anti-neurogenises effects of the caffeine :/ or maybe just some really fucked up looking neurons... i think someone should study this considering how many people take ssri's and consume caffeine regularly.
 
No one said the toxicity doesn't come from a dopaminergic action. Also, though there's nothing wrong with asking for a source, he's very highly regarded within our community and his words can be trusted.

So if amount of dopamine keeps with higher doses the same as with lower (nontoxic) ones then oxidative stress from dopamine keeps also the same. Or gets with higher doses (although tolerance happened) also more dopamine depleted as with lower doses? If amount is the same, how does the oxidative stress cause suddenly the death of neurons?

From the depths of my ass I bring you: 0.25-0.5mg/kg or 35mg for a 150ish pound individual. Seems like the area where things start being flagged for potential neurotoxicity in some studies I've read. However, this is by no means definitive.

Pls give me some sources, so I can make myself an opinion. Also pls tell me how to convert animal doses to human doses or at least a source where I can read about that stuff. Thank you!

^^That isn't necessarily the case either. A pretty good review of this issue can be found here: Advokat C. Literature review: Update on amphetamine neurotoxicity and its relevance to the treatment of ADHD. Journal of Attention Disorders. 2007;11(1):8–16.

Could you pls send me this article?

As long as doses are under 15mg/kg per day, or the duration limited to three days or less, rats only suffer short-term dopamine depletion, avoiding actual damage to dopamine nerve terminals. Unfortunately, it turns out that primates in general are more susceptible to amphetamine neurotoxicity than rodents. In baboons and squirrel monkeys, doses as small as .67mg/kg, administered twice daily for 4 weeks significantly reduced striatal dopamine concentration, transport density, and vmat sites:

Source: Ricaurte GA, Mechan AO, Yuan J, et al. Amphetamine Treatment Similar to That Used in the Treatment of Adult Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder Damages Dopaminergic Nerve Endings in the Striatum of Adult Nonhuman Primates. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2005;315(1):91–98. doi:10.1124/jpet.105.087916.

Might you also send me this from Ricaurte?

Ricaurte was in involved in a big scandal about the neurotoxicity of MDMA. (Retracted_article_on_dopaminergic_neurotoxicity_of_MDMA) The substance MDMA got changed with methamphetamine. The (false) results of his paper supported laws against ecstasy. Also there were some methodologial flaws concerning the research about his paper. This is from an interview concerning the weaknesses of his research (Retracted-Ecstasy-paper-an-outrageous-scandal):

There were obvious weaknesses in the paper, claimed Blakemore. First, 40% of the animals given supposed MDMA at a "common recreational dose" were found to be dead or dying. "But police [in the UK] estimate that one million young people take Ecstasy each weekend, yet there are only a few deaths each year," Blakemore told Kennedy.

Second was the question of the dose. The drug was administered subcutaneously, which would give a much larger dose to the brain than the usual clubber's tablet, Iversen told The Scientist; but blood plasma levels of the drug were not measured.

And third was the extreme effect on the dopamine system, which had not before been recorded for MDMA but was known for methamphetamine (the drug actually administered, as it later turned out).

According to Blakemore, Kennedy suggested Blakemore and Iversen submit a "technical comment" to Science, which would have been permanently associated with the paper. "We thought a lot about that," Blakemore told The Scientist. "Don Kennedy had admitted there was a problem [with the dose and plasma levels], and we thought that if anyone was to make a correction it should be Science itself. It would have had much less impact if two scientists sent in a carping note. It was a point of principle."

The issue is no small spat, but of profound public importance, say Blakemore and Iversen. "Scientific evidence is of crucial importance in our approach to the problem of drug abuse," Blakemore wrote to Kennedy last year, "but deliberate misrepresentation or exaggerated presentation of risk is likely to do more harm than good."

"It's an outrageous scandal," Iversen told The Scientist. "It's another example of a certain breed of scientist who appear to do research on illegal drugs mainly to show what the governments want them to show. They extract large amounts of grant money from the government to do this sort of biased work… I hope the present retraction and embarrassment to the people involved will be some sort of lesson to them."

Also:

In baboons and squirrel monkeys, doses as small as .67mg/kg, administered twice daily for 4 weeks significantly reduced striatal dopamine concentration, transport density, and vmat sites:

Is this how neurotoxicity gets measured? This study with methylphendiate also shows altered concentration measures: (Methylphenidate administration to juvenile rats alters brain areas involved in cognition, motivated behaviors, appetite, and stress.)

Neither PND35 nor PND135 rats showed major structural differences with MPH exposure. These findings suggest that developmental exposure to high therapeutic doses of MPH has short-term effects on select neurotransmitters in brain regions involved in motivated behaviors, cognition, appetite, and stress. Although the observed neuroanatomical changes largely resolve with time, chronic modulation of young brains with MPH may exert effects on brain neurochemistry that modify some behaviors even in adulthood.
This shows that the changes in neurotransmitter concentrations are temporary. Even when treatment with juvenile subjects. Adult subjects will probably even be much less impacted.

Here some research with humans https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16139732

In this study, single-photon emission computed tomography was used to investigate possible long-term alterations in the cerebral dopamine system after cessation of treatment with methylphenidate in five children with ADHD. Three months after initiation of treatment with methylphenidate, a reduction of the dopamine transporter in the striatal system was observed. Methylphenidate was administered for a period of 9 to 20 months. Follow-up with single-photon emission computed tomography after withdrawal of methylphenidate medication disclosed an increase of dopamine transporter activity comparable with pretreatment values. The observed upregulation of dopamine transporter activity might support the assumption that methylphenidate does not lead to permanent damage of the nigrostriatal dopaminergic pathways.

And here even some research concerning humans and methamphetamine abuse (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16842981)

The purpose of this study was to examine the change of dopamine transporters (DAT) binding in methamphetamine (METH) abusers in a two-week period of abstinence and its association with cognitive function. Seven healthy subjects and seven METH abusers were recruited. At baseline conditions, the values of specific uptake ratio (SUR) of DAT binding measured by single photon emission computed tomography were lower in METH abusers than in controls. After a two-week period of abstinence, DAT binding was partially recovered and there were no statistic differences in SUR between METH abusers and controls. There was a borderline correlation between the changes of DAT binding in the right, but not the left, striatum and the %Error of Wisconsin Card Sorting Test. These findings indicate that DAT binding in METH abusers can be reversed in a short period of abstinence. The recovery of DAT binding was asymmetric and possibly parallel with the improvement of cognitive function.

So where is the neurotoxicity when you observe changes of neurotransmitter concentrations (which are reversible)?

Source -- the conclusion of the 2007 review article I mentioned initially (pp. 15-16).

Given all of the evidence, while it is premature to say anything too definitive about the existence/nature/extent of the neurotoxicity of therapeutic doses of amphetamine, from a harm reduction standpoint, it makes sense to presume that they are somewhat neurotoxic and make decisions accordingly.

Concerning the high prescribtion rates and probably raising abuse cases of amphetamines, perhaps such statements (based on contradicting studies; even with Ricaurte involved again!) indicate the effort in making the foundation for some new laws... like with excstasy before.

Or in other words:

"It's an outrageous scandal," Iversen told The Scientist. "It's another example of a certain breed of scientist who appear to do research on illegal drugs mainly to show what the governments want them to show. They extract large amounts of grant money from the government to do this sort of biased work… I hope the present retraction and embarrassment to the people involved will be some sort of lesson to them."

Let's see what happens in the future! :-D
 
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So if amount of dopamine keeps with higher doses the same as with lower (nontoxic) ones then oxidative stress from dopamine keeps also the same. Or gets with higher doses (although tolerance happened) also more dopamine depleted as with lower doses? If amount is the some how does the oxidative stress cause suddenly the death of neurons?



Pls give me some sources, so I can make myself an opinion. Also pls tell me how to convert animal doses to human doses or at least a source where I can read about that stuff. Thank you!

Best I've got
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/315/1/91.long
 
i read a study saying that coffee prevents neurogenesis...which is the growth of new brain cells. i don;t know if that qualifies as neurotoxic though :/
Here is the study. I have no idea how reliable it is :/

http://jtoomim.org/brain-training/han2007-caffeine-hurts-learning.pdf

It seems as the rats were drinking all the time water with caffeine. What do you expect when you need to drink all day and night coffee? How will your sleep be? And how will be your condition after some weeks of that kind of treatment? And then in that condition you need to do learning tasks.

Also in this study is mentioned that caffeine in other studies improved cognition. Especially in ADHD rats. So people or animals with impairements might benefit from that substance.
 
So if amount of dopamine keeps with higher doses the same as with lower (nontoxic) ones then oxidative stress from dopamine keeps also the same. Or gets with higher doses (although tolerance happened) also more dopamine depleted as with lower doses? If amount is the same, how does the oxidative stress cause suddenly the death of neurons?

I don't see how one could not experience rising levels of dopamine if they raise their dose, unless you're talking about co-treatment with an anti-psychotic when raising the dose, and that still probably wouldn't negate the net increase in d as most anti-psychotics (in fact, one might argue the that this is the neurochemical definition of an anti-psychotic) function as antagonist at D2, with little or negligible action at the other d sites. Also, anti-psychotics don't simply stop dopamine from working; they re-distribute dopamine, so even if you were to argue this its probably not true.

Cells need O2 to function. Without it, they're literally starved, and die.

Despite tolerance, your d levels would still rise if you raise the dose. No, dopamine release/agonism/oxidase inhibition/re-uptake potential is predicated on the dose, with a higher dose leading to more. To my knowledge, the only situation in which that would not be true is if you had a partial agonist (a good example is aripiprazole), which maintains D2 within a certain margin.
 
Logarithm -- I tried to PM you dropbox links for the two articles but it says you have exceeded your storage space and cannot currently receive PMs. Message me when you clear that up and I'll send them to you. I think you make some good points and though I had heard about the bit with Ricaurte and MDMA, I didn't put together that it was the same person until you brought it up. I'm certainly not convinced that relatively low doses of amphetamine taken daily are neurotoxic; but I'm not convinced that they aren't, either, and the evidence that suggests that they could be neurotoxic is absolutely plausible, but not conclusive. Precautionary principle is relevant here. I'm not canceling my script, but I'm certainly trying to take precautions and countermeasures.

Ho-Chi-Minh -- I think you are right about co-treatment with antipsychotics not protecting against neurotoxicity. As I understand it, the mechanism for neurotoxicity is not related to post-synaptic binding, so if neuroleptics have any effect at all on this, it would probably be negative (not to mention creating the additional risk of eps). Also, your inference about caffeine is really fascinating; it would be nice if there were studies that looked for interaction effects between caffeine and treatments known to stimulate bdnf mediated hippocampal neurogenesis.
 
Logarithm -- I tried to PM you dropbox links for the two articles but it says you have exceeded your storage space and cannot currently receive PMs. Message me when you clear that up and I'll send them to you. I think you make some good points and though I had heard about the bit with Ricaurte and MDMA, I didn't put together that it was the same person until you brought it up. I'm certainly not convinced that relatively low doses of amphetamine taken daily are neurotoxic; but I'm not convinced that they aren't, either, and the evidence that suggests that they could be neurotoxic is absolutely plausible, but not conclusive. Precautionary principle is relevant here. I'm not canceling my script, but I'm certainly trying to take precautions and countermeasures.

Ho-Chi-Minh -- I think you are right about co-treatment with antipsychotics not protecting against neurotoxicity. As I understand it, the mechanism for neurotoxicity is not related to post-synaptic binding, so if neuroleptics have any effect at all on this, it would probably be negative (not to mention creating the additional risk of eps). Also, your inference about caffeine is really fascinating; it would be nice if there were studies that looked for interaction effects between caffeine and treatments known to stimulate bdnf mediated hippocampal neurogenesis.

I'll post my paper as soon as its graded (don't want to set of the plagarism bots), but there is some evidence linking excessive DA receptor activation to issues with the proteasome system and starting inclusion formation within the cell. It was the Fornai lab in 2008 that showed that IIRC

There's a mounting body of evidence that suggests that amphetamines can induce cell death when dosed at consistently moderate levels for a long period of time. Granted this is solely from in vitro/ rat studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22445524
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22512859

It almost looks like chronic amphetamine treatment causes selective build up of debris along the axons and it increase in mitophagy results in selective pruning apart from PKCdelta going into pro-apoptotic rage mode.
 
It seems as the rats were drinking all the time water with caffeine. What do you expect when you need to drink all day and night coffee? How will your sleep be? And how will be your condition after some weeks of that kind of treatment? And then in that condition you need to do learning tasks.

Also in this study is mentioned that caffeine in other studies improved cognition. Especially in ADHD rats. So people or animals with impairements might benefit from that substance.

In the study it states that there was a low dose of caffeine in the water (0.3 g/l) which leads to plasma levels representative of regular daily human consumption. I don't think it says how often throughout the day the rats were consuming this dosage though.

Like i said i'm not sure how reliable the study is, i was just responding to "Engage's" comment in which he said he was wondering about caffeine consumption and neurotoxicity.
I guess other studies need to be looked at in order to come to a conclusion.
 
I'll post my paper as soon as its graded (don't want to set of the plagarism bots), but there is some evidence linking excessive DA receptor activation to issues with the proteasome system and starting inclusion formation within the cell. It was the Fornai lab in 2008 that showed that IIRC

There's a mounting body of evidence that suggests that amphetamines can induce cell death when dosed at consistently moderate levels for a long period of time. Granted this is solely from in vitro/ rat studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22445524
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22512859

It almost looks like chronic amphetamine treatment causes selective build up of debris along the axons and it increase in mitophagy results in selective pruning apart from PKCdelta going into pro-apoptotic rage mode.

I would've liked a study on Dextroamphetamine, but fair enough. How would you go about alleviating this possible effect (to the extent that it can be done)?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16088595, mostly on MDMA/Methamphetamine.
 
I would've liked a study on Dextroamphetamine, but fair enough. How would you go about alleviating this possible effect (to the extent that it can be done)?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16088595, mostly on MDMA/Methamphetamine.

Pretty much antioxidants all the way, almost every change appears to be initiated by oxidative stress. That's why I push CoQ10 so hard, if only because its lipophilic, favorable to the mitochondria and has a very long half life.

Also, here's a bunch of evidence that MDMA does indeed fry the human brain.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20521322
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21160467
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22047194
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22831704
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23001254
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17077812

A lot of these are prospective studies so there's less chance that users were like that before but the evidence is building up that MDMA ain't good fo' ya' brain
 
So your saying, taking 100mg d-amp and feeling next to no effects and low/no side effects that there is still serious damage occuring...
 
It depends on how often you take it as well as other factors such as diet, amount of exercise (not on amphetamine), healthy habits, general stresses, etc.
 
Think I have just answered my own question. Dumped 130mg of d-amp with the previous 7 days using 40-50mg a day all times feeling just sides, the day i used the 130mg I felt more on my first time using 5mg yet here I am on day 2 going through serious fatigue and mentally I have no spark at all, depressed but different to a serotonergic feeling depressed just like a cant be fucked with anything really and productivity/motivation is what? What is that

Yeah, I am now no longer lieing to myself and choosing to believe that amp isn't causing damage unless you feel anything, thats bullshit, I was deffintly focussing extremely well as those effects are the ones that will generally always stay (D4 receptor doesnt downregulate or sensitise in the front lobe?) hell it still increases my focus great at sub 20mg doses with not a side effect in sight.

Starting to think that amphetamine neurotoxicity isn't soley dependant on dopamine release aswell...
 
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