Miscellaneous What Psychedelics Do You All Wish Were More Accessible?

[Esperighanto]

Hey guys,

This has been on my mind for a while, and I've been trying to figure out why some psychedelics that were such a boom fell out of business due to being banned, but similar ones didn't 2C-[E/I/D/P/iP/C] got banned and the production stopped, but not for 2C-B. 2C-B and 2C-C share almost identical syntheses and precursors as well, so why not provide the option of 2C-C on DNMs? Yet I haven't come across it on DNMs in many years. The same goes for N-benzylalted phyenthylamines, more 3,4,5-trisubstituted phenethylamines (think mescaline and friends), interesting lysergamides like the LADs and LSP[/B/Z/M], I could go on and on too about how benzo diversity is quite low when really the slight precursor shifts necessary to broaden what's available are incredibly easy.

Why was the golden age of RCs in the past if nowadays some ket chemist could create MXE and make an absolute fortune, or a 2C-B chemist could start creating DOB, DOC, 2C-B, 2C-C, their -NBOH, -NBMD and -NBOMe variants, and maybe some simple things such as Shulgin's essential amphetamines (TMA-2, DMMDA, DMMDA-2, MMDA-2, MMDA-3a, MMDA, etc.). Hell, even 2C-T-X's can be trivially synthesized from 2C-B which is wildely available right now, so why hasn't it returned to the market?

Do you guys think that it's just because psychedelic markets aren't as highly profiting as say, 3-MMC/4-MMC/Methamphetamine/Amphetamine/Cocaine/Fent markets?

Just generally wondering if there are any known of reasons that only a few RCs make it into the mainstream over time. I feel like DOM, 2C-B, 4-AcO-DMT, NEP and 4-MMC are some examples of RCs that "graduted" in a way into the world of "real drugs", if that makes any sense.

Interested to hear peoples' takes on this, I wasn't around for the major RC golden age so I'm very curious about what people may know about what led to its downfall in general. I'm also interested to hear about peoples' takes on non-RC psychedelics that are difficult to acquire in a meaningful amount of doses, such as mescaline and ibogaine.

 

[Pfafffed]

I'm certainly not an authority on the matter - not in the slightest - but I can offer some wild speculation. In the pre-WebTryp era, psychedelic research chemicals were seen as a gray area legally. Enthusiasts made them for the fairly niche group of enthusiasts. I don't imagine that the market was what we anyone would call large. After the WebTryp bust, there were vastly fewer people willing to procure and distribute RC psychedelics given the increase in perceived risk. It seemed like that was the status quo until the DNMs showed up and replicated the same perceived low risk/low financial gain situation for the vast majority of participants. After busts and exit scams and endless DDOS attacks and so on, the costs and risks of offering niche materials rose, and fewer people were saw that as something they wanted to risk. The people that stayed were more likely to put more emphasis on financial justifications, sticking to psychedelics with broad, general appeal. The biggest changes I noticed were an increasing acceptance of 2C-B and I guess ketamine in those intervening years.

You asked specifically about mescaline. That suffers from both its low potency (making it comparatively expensive to produce by any means) and low demand (because it hasn't been in the zeitgeist for over a hundred years.)

 

[CashmereCat]

I think what Pfafffed said makes a lot of sense.
There's risk and also a significant time commitment unfiltered in being a DNM vendor. Most people willing to take that risk and sacrifice their time to filling orders are driven mainly by profit motive. So, they focus on producing chemicals like 2C-B, which is a psychedelic but is kind of a club drug crossover but too. It's more than a niche substance for serious psychonauts now.
I am a little surprised that no one who makes K has started making MXE too, I think there's commercial potential there much more so than in a lot of the psychedelics you mentioned. I enjoyed 2C-I for example, but I think it's for pretty limited commercial potential. It's a substance likely to be appreciated, and more importantly purchased, by a small set of self exploring psychonaut types. MXE could make a producer money I think and I wish it'd come back. I guess maybe anyone making K in commercial quantities must make so much money they see little reason to take risks and try to revive a market?

I think mescaline is a good example of a great substance with limited name recognition and profit margin, so low on producers priority lists.

 

[nekointheclouds]

LSD All Day.

I haven't come across any since 2011.

 

[CashmereCat]

LSD All Day.

I haven't come across any since 2011.

Not a DNM user?

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

I am a little surprised that no one who makes K has started making MXE too, I think there's commercial potential there much more so than in a lot of the psychedelics you mentioned.

Most of the Ketamine has been stolen or diverted from legal medical sources, very little is actually illicitly manufactured; there is no legal MXE manufacture so all of it is manufactured illicitly.

 

[CashmereCat]

Most of the Ketamine has been stolen or diverted from legal medical sources, very little is actually illicitly manufactured; there is no legal MXE manufacture so all of it is manufactured illicitly.

That makes sense. I know very little about chemistry myself, do you know if ketamine and by extension MXE is difficult to manufacture either due to being a difficult synth or requiring hard to get precursors? I'm not sure if MXE precursors were illegalized or tightly controlled when it was, but if they were that could explain why it essentially no longer exists. I'd think if the precursors were still readily available someone who made it when it was legal would have produced it illegally by now.

 

[Kingoffrogs]

Mescaline. IME it is hard to get unless you live out by the west coast or are in Las Vegas. You might get really lucky if you know someone that knows someone, but anywhere east of the rockies it is like panning for gold.

 

[Mjäll]

One word

DiPT

You take it and every frequency lowers - you get DiP'ed

Darkly hedonistic wonk that makes your mom sound like a cartoon monster

Perfect street drug

 

[xdrc]

That makes sense. I know very little about chemistry myself, do you know if ketamine and by extension MXE is difficult to manufacture either due to being a difficult synth or requiring hard to get precursors? I'm not sure if MXE precursors were illegalized or tightly controlled when it was, but if they were that could explain why it essentially no longer exists. I'd think if the precursors were still readily available someone who made it when it was legal would have produced it illegally by now.

It is a tricky multi-step synthesis with crap yields along the way. Neither MXE nor ketamine are exceptionally potent and even for the connoisseur market, there is a limit on how much people are willing to pay for a single dose. The precursors themselves are not too much of a problem, depending on which scale we are talking about and where in the world you are.

2C-B and 2C-C share almost identical syntheses and precursors as well, so why not provide the option of 2C-C on DNMs?

It's actually not quite as trivial as 2C-B and is less potent.

 

[red22]

DMMDA

LSD All Day.

I haven't come across any since 2011.

In PiHKAL, Shulgin asserts that the subjective effects of 75 milligrams of DMMDA are equivalent to those of 75–100 microgram of D-lysergic acid diethylamide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMMDA

 

[Esperighanto]

It's actually not quite as trivial as 2C-B and is less potent.

The chlorination of 2C-H via NCS vs bromination via NBS appears to be of difficulty, but I've used to attempt with N-halosuccinimides.

Honestly less potent psychs are what the average person needs. Hellholes like /r/2C-B are full of MDMA addicts looking to use 2C-B to "roll more, but safer", or they'll take a single pressie labeled 20mg (easily contains 8-12mgj if you check testing databases amd then yuo just get this anxious come-up for barely noticeable effects in most cases. 2C-C could also be used to create 25C-NBOH/NBOMe, which were huge hits as far as N-Benzylated phenethylamines go.

One word

DiPT

DiPT is very fascinating! I much prefer it to 5-MeO-DiPT. Recently I took just over 150mg of DiPT orally and it felt a lot like just collapsing into a series recursive lives on the markic wheel. It was around 75ug of the purest acid I've ever come across, 45mg of 2C-B, and 25mg of 5-MeO-DiPT. I'd whipped up odd cocoction in a blue, acicidc, berry flaovred liquor and it was quite a magical and transcencdental experience, whereas lower doses are just like wackd out (and in many ways superior) mushrooms in my opinion, and my fiancee's as well. It recently healed some nerve damage he had which is nice!

Mescaline. IME it is hard to get unless you live out by the west coast or are in Las Vegas. You might get really lucky if you know someone that knows someone, but anywhere east of the rockies it is like panning for gold.

Exxtracting it from cacti (even just from home depot) has yielded well for me regardless of location. DMT and harmala alkaloids are cheaper to buy already extracted, at least here in the US.

I'm certainly not an authority on the matter - not in the slightest - but I can offer some wild speculation. In the pre-WebTryp era, psychedelic research chemicals were seen as a gray area legally. Enthusiasts made them for the fairly niche group of enthusiasts. I don't imagine that the market was what we anyone would call large. After the WebTryp bust, there were vastly fewer people willing to procure and distribute RC psychedelics given the increase in perceived risk. It seemed like that was the status quo until the DNMs showed up and replicated the same perceived low risk/low financial gain situation for the vast majority of participants. After busts and exit scams and endless DDOS attacks and so on, the costs and risks of offering niche materials rose, and fewer people were saw that as something they wanted to risk. The people that stayed were more likely to put more emphasis on financial justifications, sticking to psychedelics with broad, general appeal. The biggest changes I noticed were an increasing acceptance of 2C-B and I guess ketamine in those intervening years.

You asked specifically about mescaline. That suffers from both its low potency (making it comparatively expensive to produce by any means) and low demand (because it hasn't been in the zeitgeist for over a hundred years.)

Stockpiling mescaline is nice because very few drugs feel quite as healing, but you're totally correct that it's infeasable to reasonably producei n in large amounts. 4 Hour come-ups also dissuade people I think appreciate the info you've given me here.

I've got my fingers crossed that we'll start seeing more diverse psychedelics hit the market sooner rather than later

 

[PsychedelicSummer]

As previously said, lack of commercial market seems the most likely cause. For things like 2C-2-7 it may be worry that some ignorant kid will OD. But I surely miss most of the substances mentioned, though I have a few gems stacked away for a rainy day like Aleph-1, DOM, 2C-T, 2C-T-2, 2C-T-7, 2C-T-21, TMA-6, Proscaline, AL-LAD, MIPLA & ETH-LAD. Unfortunately all in amounts just for 1-3 trips each. I have a bunch of exotic tryptamines too, but I fear that at least some have gone bad as they've changed color a lot. Phenetylamines are soo much better for long term storage as they don't turn bad.
I would love to get my hand on some 2C-C, 2C-D, 2C-E, DOC, TMA-2, MEM, HOT-7, Foxy, Moxy, DiPT, aMT to name a few that comes to mind and that I have yet to experience.

 

[red22]

I think if ergoamides are mixed with antioxidants they'll be very stable.

It is also at this phase that the delicate natures of the lysergic molecules express themselves. While they are locked up in ergot or in seeds, these molecules are pretty stable, so long as the crop is kept cool, dry, and free from mold. Once they are released, they are prey to light, heat, air, and bad chemical handling. A clock begins to tick on the shelf life of your product.

Practical LSD Manufacture. Uncle Fester, 1995. 3. Extraction and Isolation of Lysergic Acid Amides


Pharmaceutical LSD tablets contained antioxidants:

Only in completely oxygen-free ampules, protected from light, is LSD absolutely stable. Such ampules, containing 100 µg (= 0.1 mg) LSD-tartrate (tartaric acid salt of LSD) in 1 cc of aqueous solution, were produced for biological research and medicinal use by the Sandoz firm. LSD in tablets, prepared with additives that inhibit oxidation, while not absolutely stable, at least keeps for a longer time. But LSD preparations often found on the black market—LSD that has been applied in solution onto sugar cubes or blotting paper—decompose in the course of weeks or a few months.

Albert Hofmann. LSD: My Problem Child (1979, 1980), ISBN: 9780070293250. 5. From Remedy to Inebriant / LSD from the Black Market


I wrote a post about how having drugs in pure form is bad practice. Also I don't think Hofmann realized how good common, natural products are for antioxidant potential, such as resveratrol, coffee, and shilajit (a natural multi-mineral deposit that was tested against vitamin C for antioxidant potential and found to be superior). Although, allegedly there is a fungal issue with coffee (you wouldn't want a fungus consuming your LSD)... If anyone has pure powders and wants them to last he should probably mix them into some sort of bulking agent like mannitol and add a bit of antioxidant like resveratrol: similar to how chems are found in nature... Not to mention keeping them in the freezer.

Leaving chemicals as pure crystals or liquids is very dumb. Look at this quote from Practical LSD Manufacture:

It is also at this phase that the delicate natures of the lysergic molecules express themselves. While they are locked up in ergot or in seeds, these molecules are pretty stable, so long as the crop is kept cool, dry, and free from mold. Once they are released, they are prey to light, heat, air, and bad chemical handling. A clock begins to tick on the shelf life of your product.*


Only in completely oxygen-free ampules, protected from light, is LSD absolutely stable. Such ampules, containing 100 µg (= 0.1 mg) LSD-tartrate (tartaric acid salt of LSD) in 1 cc of aqueous solution, were produced for biological research and medicinal use by the Sandoz firm. LSD in tablets, prepared with additives that inhibit oxidation, while not absolutely stable, at least keeps for a longer time. But LSD preparations often found on the black market—LSD that has been applied in solution onto sugar cubes or blotting paper—decompose in the course of weeks or a few months.

Albert Hofmann. LSD: My Problem Child (1979, 1980), ISBN: 9780070293250. 5. From Remedy to Inebriant / LSD from the Black Market


Pure chemicals are like being outside in a bathing suit with no sunscreen on (well, sensitive ones, like LSD). In an above post I recommended turning LSD into a cocaine-like substance by mixing it into liquid and inositol and dehydrating it, and even though I was criticized for recommending a process that might result in unpredictable dosing, even a cheap sugar alcohol like inositol will have a "sunscreen-like effect" on the LSD, i.e. if you currently have a vial of liquid it would be advantageous to just add some, e.g. inositol and salt. These serve the purpose of the stabilizers that Hofmann spoke of.

Of course sun isn't the concern because you can easily keep it awa from the light, the concern is air (someone even old me that he fills his extracted DMT containers with argon gas or something). Oxidation is the problem and we always hear about how its an unhealthy event in our bodies, and this is also true of chemicals. So, for example, if you have an LSD gel tab and a bit of pure LSD powder sitting in a drawer and you come back to it after a while, which one do you think is going to to be in better condition? Obviously the gel tab because it isn't exposed to as much air, air doesn't just breeze through it.

And there may be some commonly available substances that are even better than pharmaceutic stabilizers, for example health nuts talk about how coffee is one of the most powerful antioxidants there is. Other examples of supposedly powerful antioxidants are fulvic acid (basically a refined, nutritious mineral deposit), vitamin C and resveratrol. And because of LSD's potency, you probably don't need much of these things, just add a hint of this or that and you should ensure longer shelf life for your LSD. Everyone who lays blotter should add an antioxidant to the alcohol. Coffee, however, is rumored to have a mycotoxin issue, and bad bacteria could probably fuck up your chems, so I would do some research about this topic before just adding arbitrary stabilizers to your drugs, but this really should become a thing. It looks cool to have a completely pure drug in a glass container, but it's not good from a stability standpoint. If you want pure drugs, store them in a vacuum container or an argon-gas container or whatever and keep them in the freezer.


*Practical LSD Manufacture. Uncle Fester, 1995. 3. Extraction and Isolation of Lysergic Acid Amides

 

[xdrc]

The chlorination of 2C-H via NCS vs bromination via NBS appears to be of difficulty, but I've used to attempt with N-halosuccinimides.

Honestly less potent psychs are what the average person needs. Hellholes like /r/2C-B are full of MDMA addicts looking to use 2C-B to "roll more, but safer", or they'll take a single pressie labeled 20mg (easily contains 8-12mgj if you check testing databases amd then yuo just get this anxious come-up for barely noticeable effects in most cases. 2C-C could also be used to create 25C-NBOH/NBOMe, which were huge hits as far as N-Benzylated phenethylamines go.

This will likely yield overchlorinated product, as indeed often seen on the market for 2C-C or DOC. I hope this does not shift too much into synthesis talk, as this is imo a harm reduction concern. Of course with the overchlorinated product being encountered reasonably often, it does not seem to be acutely harmful.

The second paragraph shows you why demand is low: the market precisely yearns for a cheap and plentiful product. Personally, I very much enjoy low doses of ~ 12 mg HCl orally. It requires some work to make it useful though, as it will hardly carry away too much if set and setting are inadequate.

As for wishing things to be more accessible, though I have never tried it, I'd vote for MMDA. It came at the wrong time and was outlawed before it could show its glory. There are hardly any negative reports about it and the effects seem quite remarkable and unique.

 

[Esperighanto]

As for wishing things to be more accessible, though I have never tried it, I'd vote for MMDA. It came at the wrong time and was outlawed before it could show its glory. There are hardly any negative reports about it and the effects seem quite remarkable and unique.

MMDA does sound beautiful, I believe it was Claudio Naranjo who worked with that or another one of the essential amphetamines? It sounded like it had great therapeutic potential.

 

[Ismene2]

4-aco-dmt in the UK. The real white stuff not the fake grey shit.

Real mdma

Mushrooms too.

 

[username_required]

Interestingly enough, I was actually having this very though as I stumbled across this thread. great minds think alike .

I live in Canada, and while our drug laws here are generally fairly relaxed compared to many countries. Unfortunately In 2016 our then conservative government decided that just 2C-B being scheduled wasn’t enough and included an extremely specific entry in the CSDA Schedule III that is essentially just a description that essentially encompasses every 2,5-dimethoxyphenelamine and the vast majority of not all of their substituted derivatives, which is just so incredibly frustrating. All of the 2C and DOx substances are on my bucket list but this rate I doubt i’ll get to try any of them baring 2C-B. Shockingly enough however even 2C-B is very hard to come by from local sources or XXX (mod edit) a gram if I were to so choose to order from a clearnet market in the province of BC where their drug laws are super permissive.

Oh well, at least we still have tryptamines, catherine’s, lysergemides, phenmetrazines, and mescaline derivates, which is fantastic don’t get me wrong but goddamn nearly everything in PiHKAL is illegal :/

It’s funny how drug prohibition is actually fairly beneficial for more “problematic” drugs like Fentanyl and Coke and only actually works as intended for drugs that have no business being anywhere near the CSDA. Shouts out ronald reagan.

As for wishing things to be more accessible, though I have never tried it, I'd vote for MMDA. It came at the wrong time and was outlawed before it could show its glory. There are hardly any negative reports about it and the effects seem quite remarkable and unique

Where I live, MDMA is most certainly in its glory days. It is extremely cheap and very very easy to come by.

As an aside, if anyone knows if it’s even possible to obtain any DOx compounds in canada at all I would love to hear. I’m
not asking for a source I’m really just curious to see if anyone else has been able to find them because I sure as hell can’t.

Thank you for listening to my TED talk.

 

[Esperighanto]

Where I live, MDMA is most certainly in its glory days. It is extremely cheap and very very easy to come by.

The comment you were responding to said MMDA, not MDMA, check them out in PiHKAL, MMDA is 3,-methoxy-4,5-methylenedioxyamphetamine. It has a starting material in common with a prime constituent of nutmeg oil iirc?

As an aside, if anyone knows if it’s even possible to obtain any DOx compounds in canada at all I would love to hear.

I've only found them in Canada, DOM and DOB at least, and I got DOC from a vendor who got it from a canadian chemist. DOC was first found in the late 70's in a police bust in western Canada as well.

 

[Esperighanto]

The second paragraph shows you why demand is low: the market precisely yearns for a cheap and plentiful product.

I would venture further and say that the market looks for minimal bodyload, quick come-up, and high amounts of visuals too, filtering out many of the most insightful psychedelics for personal growth.