What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[Negi]

I thought I would drop in an interesting Reddit report, it was titled "High Dose Mdma but i feel nothing.":

To start off, i took mdma several times with my two good friends. The first trips i just exploded like a fucking nuclear bomb, we used the phrase ‚my fking cock is exploding‘. But sometimes i take mdma, especially the last 4/5 times, and feel nothing. Its not 100% nothing, i feel that i have something in my body that is working but i don‘t explode like i should or get at least the nice mdma feeling after the peak. My pupiles are getting big and my jaw is clenching a bit. So we tested the mdma to know that it actual mdma, we all are always taking the same (crystals) and mostly the same amount which depends on our body weight. Overall we ate shrooms today and we wanted to hippiflip. 4/5h after we took the schroom we all took mdma. I felt the comeup but i feel like i was stuck on this phase, overall i took around 500mg of clear and tested mdma crystals without even getting any results. (And yes we do make breaks around 1/2 Months at minimum between our mdma evenings) I‘m asking here if anyone is feeling the same? Or better i‘m looking for a cure xd

Aside from the mention of some pupil dilation it sounded exactly like what people here described mehDMA feeling like, all comeup but no peak, and upping the dosage having no effects.

However when I asked about if his friends were having the same response to the same MDMA:

No the are literally exploding and having their time of their life. I mean my actual stage is not bad, it feels just like a super low dose mdma comedown. Thats why i was wondering?

 

[indigoaura]

I thought I would drop in an interesting Reddit report, it was titled "High Dose Mdma but i feel nothing.":


Aside from the mention of some pupil dilation it sounded exactly like what people here described mehDMA feeling like, all comeup but no peak, and upping the dosage having no effects.

However when I asked about if his friends were having the same response to the same MDMA:

His report does sound like what is reported here. The pupil dilation is different though, as is the fact that his friends are having typical effects.

I have not seen a lot of reports on this thread where the complaint is that one person did not roll, but other people did. Usually, the product has had the same sub-par effects on multiple people.

I know I probably seem like a broken, nostalgic record, but if I had ever seen anyone "blowing up" on the product I have, I would have accepted it as a personal issue a long time ago.

 

[indigoaura]

There was a guy on here awhile back who was a researcher, and he was studying the liver and how the liver might impact the MDMA state/loss of magic etc. I really would have liked to have known more about his thesis, because it sounded pretty interesting. He was talking about impurities possibly interfering somehow in the liver, for certain individuals only. I could see how this would make sense, especially when you think about something like CYP2D6 and how certain other medications can make the MDMA experience more intense and dangerous if CYP2D6 is tied up.

He never actually stated his full theory, but I wondered if he was theorizing that the liver (in some repeated MDMA users) becomes hyper efficient to the extent that it is eliminating the MDMA from the body before it even has a chance to create the peak experience. He suggested taking a small amount of DXM before the MDMA to recreate the original, magical experiences. That was always something that I was warned NOT to do at any cost, due to the fact that DXM would occupy those CYP2D6 enzymes.

 

[fasterfb]

something like CYP2D6 and how certain other medications can make the MDMA experience more intense and dangerous if CYP2D6 is tied up.

He suggested taking a small amount of DXM before the MDMA to recreate the original, magical experiences.

Just my 2 cents. I take a grapefruit extract with my rolls, although I roll just fine without it.
I just thought 'why not' if it can extend the roll, so I continue to take it.

As far as DXM, it seems that this is a very dangerous combination, as you stated.
I would go with the grapefruit juice or grapefruit extract to be safe.

 

[Observer01]

Thanks for posting, @JoEhJoEh & @Observer01!

Observer01, would you mind sharing your general region just so we have a better idea of your situation? Are you in the US and working with US DW vendors, or are you in Europe, the UK, or elsewhere?

What you are describing about MDMA becoming more predictable is definitely something that I experienced as I rolled more frequently, even when I had access to quality product. It was a very predictable experience, especially since there were not a lot of variables for me and it was typically just me and my partner listening to music and enjoying each other at home. However, it was that predictability to the experience that made the change in the experience so noticeable. You said, "I know where I am going and know what to expect...It is just more of a well worn path then the first few times and I can predict the timeline. I know the come up, the peak, the comedown, and how I will feel at each step along the way." That is exactly how I used to feel about MDMA. What would you think if that well worn path suddenly became unfamiliar and lacked the mile markers along the way? What if the come-up, the peak, and the comedown suddenly changed for you?

For me, there is a notable difference between a very familiar and predictable MDMA roll and the experiences I have had with this subpar product.

As for lifestyle, I cannot speak for anyone else in this thread, but I do not drink at all, do not do cocaine/meth/opiates, am at a reasonable weight, and eat healthy. I regularly check in on vitamin levels, and I do have low vitamin D which could be an issue, but I think that is pretty common. I have some hormonal imbalances that could be impacting things. The only other drugs I have used have been LSD, mushrooms, and 2CX substances.

2C substances have definitely gained that predictable quality that you reference in your post, and they do not have as intense of an effect as they did originally. However, unlike the sudden change in the MDMA experience, I find 2C substances to be very easy to recognize with characteristic qualities that make it very clear what drug was consumed. Dosage is a precise science there, and I know the variation I will experience between 15-35 mg and can tweak it according to my set/setting to achieve exactly what I want. Again, all I can say is that there is a difference between experience making something predictable and something changing so much that you feel like you took a different drug.

I feel like I know what you are describing in your post, and I have experienced it myself. For me personally, the "meh" experience is different than a "MDMA has become predictable" experience. I wish I could explain it in a way that made it clearer, and I wish I could go back to that well worn path of satisfying predictability.

I am in the western US and have always used USA based vendors. I am careful and thorough, but don't spend an insane amount of time on this aspect.

I understand your points and they make sense. And to be clear, I have definitely had variations in product quality. However, on the whole it has mostly been capable of acheiving "magic" experiences, with a small minority of negative experiences.

 

[indigoaura]

I am in the western US and have always used USA based vendors. I am careful and thorough, but don't spend an insane amount of time on this aspect.

I understand your points and they make sense. And to be clear, I have definitely had variations in product quality. However, on the whole it has mostly been capable of acheiving "magic" experiences, with a small minority of negative experiences.

Have you tried a lot of different vendors or mostly stuck to a few trusted people?

Were your negative experiences batch specific? In other words, did they all occur within the same batches, or did they fall within batches that you also had "magic" experiences from?

 

[Negi]

There was a guy on here awhile back who was a researcher, and he was studying the liver and how the liver might impact the MDMA state/loss of magic etc. I really would have liked to have known more about his thesis, because it sounded pretty interesting. He was talking about impurities possibly interfering somehow in the liver, for certain individuals only. I could see how this would make sense, especially when you think about something like CYP2D6 and how certain other medications can make the MDMA experience more intense and dangerous if CYP2D6 is tied up.

He never actually stated his full theory, but I wondered if he was theorizing that the liver (in some repeated MDMA users) becomes hyper efficient to the extent that it is eliminating the MDMA from the body before it even has a chance to create the peak experience. He suggested taking a small amount of DXM before the MDMA to recreate the original, magical experiences. That was always something that I was warned NOT to do at any cost, due to the fact that DXM would occupy those CYP2D6 enzymes.

It's interesting, in one reply he said he discounted tolerance because:

Yeah i thought about this one. But the wird thing is that my last 6 trips, i had 4 who went like this and 2 super nice trips. Its just really weird and i can‘t explain it myself.

I asked for a timeline and he hasn't replied yet, but from the context I assume that he's had at least one "super nice" experience after he started getting the negative effects.

 

[indigoaura]

It's interesting, in one reply he said he discounted tolerance because:

I asked for a timeline and he hasn't replied yet, but from the context I assume that he's had at least one "super nice" experience after he started getting the negative effects.

I clicked the link and read the whole thread. Very interesting. If his friends were also getting hit or miss experiences, I would assume that maybe the crystal was cut with something and inconsistently distributed. However, if he is the only one having these "meh" experiences while his friends have a great time, then it has to be something with him in particular. I noticed he said he does not take any medications, which would have been one of my questions for him.

 

[cosmosmariner]

Yes, but that’s the 5HT3 receptor, not the 5HT2 receptor.

 

[Observer01]

Have you tried a lot of different vendors or mostly stuck to a few trusted people?

Were your negative experiences batch specific? In other words, did they all occur within the same batches, or did they fall within batches that you also had "magic" experiences from?

Truly, it has been both. Over 12 years I have had one or two grams I have purchased that were 100% not MDMA. The "bunk" experiences. These experiences led me to learn about reagent testing. However, there have also been times where I have had varying experiences from one batch. Meaning I was a bit run down, tired, and my head wasn't in as good of a space and this led to a mediocre roll that I never felt really peaked. Could feel the come up but no breakthrough. Same batch 6 months later coming into it with a much better headspace and better rested, great roll.

 

[psy997]

However when I asked about if his friends were having the same response to the same MDMA:

if he is the only one having these "meh" experiences while his friends have a great time, then it has to be something with him in particular. I noticed he said he does not take any medications, which would have been one of my questions for him.

Negi, thanks for bringing this piece in. We really do need as much information as we can get about the same batch being used by multiple people, and the effects on each.

I'm open to individual chemistry being the culprit here, or a large factor. Something like certain contaminants affecting absorption due to enzyme differences, or the body adapting to MDMA consumption in such a way to mute effects, like mentioned above. It's not my main theory right now mainly because I just don't see how that would be possible considering my own experiences, the way I take care of myself, etc. I'll tell you though, I'm excited to have my mind blown if it does end up being the case. That would be a major discovery. I'm not super well read on pharmaceutical history, but so far as my extensive recreational drug research goes, I've never really heard of a drug that has such a drastic shift in effect after any period of use, let alone such a variable shift as would have to be the case.

No matter what the origin of Meh experiences is, the realization of the phenomenon will be a great day in pharmacology and chemistry.

 

[indigoaura]

Truly, it has been both. Over 12 years I have had one or two grams I have purchased that were 100% not MDMA. The "bunk" experiences. These experiences led me to learn about reagent testing. However, there have also been times where I have had varying experiences from one batch. Meaning I was a bit run down, tired, and my head wasn't in as good of a space and this led to a mediocre roll that I never felt really peaked. Could feel the come up but no breakthrough. Same batch 6 months later coming into it with a much better headspace and better rested, great roll.

Interesting. Did you end up testing those bunk batches?

If I had to describe it, I would say that there is variation between batches and variation within batches. From my personal observation, however, there is greater variation between batches than within. If we were rating MDMA on a scale of 0-10 with 0 being bunk/inert and 10 being life-changingly magical, then I would say that within the same batch you may experience 1-2 points of variation. Not sure if that makes sense. In other words, one batch could produce a 6-8 depending on set/setting, and another batch could produce a 3-5. However, I have not personally experienced a batch that produced a 3 on one day and a 9 on another day. Similarly, I have not personally seen situations where one person got a 10 and another person just got a 5.

The one exception to that back in the old days were MDMA virgins. A MDMA virgin would get a 10 off product that everyone else mostly thought was a 6 or 7. I have seen that before. That is why it was surprising to me when my subpar batches were also subpar to MDMA virgins.

I have also been in situations where I took one pill and was getting a 4, and then switched over to a more reliable/known pill and went to a 10 easily. That could be as simple as dosage, but it doesn't seem to happen when you continuously re-dose with the same batch that was producing that 4.

@Negi I agree. I am open to considering all types of theories here. However, based on what I have seen personally and all of the reading I have done, I feel like the quality/purity of the MDMA has to be a major factor.

Also, I want to add that I am not just basing this on memory. I have 8mm movies that show me, friends, acquaintances totally off our faces on pills from 2000 to 2003. I also have photos. Obviously, can't share for privacy reasons, but people rolling on subpar product do not even look the same as people rolling on good product. There is an objective, observable, noticeable difference in how people hold their jaws, body movement, eye movement, eye dilation etc.

 

[Observer01]

Interesting. Did you end up testing those bunk batches?

If I had to describe it, I would say that there is variation between batches and variation within batches. From my personal observation, however, there is greater variation between batches than within. If we were rating MDMA on a scale of 0-10 with 0 being bunk/inert and 10 being life-changingly magical, then I would say that within the same batch you may experience 1-2 points of variation. Not sure if that makes sense. In other words, one batch could produce a 6-8 depending on set/setting, and another batch could produce a 3-5. However, I have not personally experienced a batch that produced a 3 on one day and a 9 on another day. Similarly, I have not personally seen situations where one person got a 10 and another person just got a 5.

The one exception to that back in the old days were MDMA virgins. A MDMA virgin would get a 10 off product that everyone else mostly thought was a 6 or 7. I have seen that before. That is why it was surprising to me when my subpar batches were also subpar to MDMA virgins.

I have also been in situations where I took one pill and was getting a 4, and then switched over to a more reliable/known pill and went to a 10 easily. That could be as simple as dosage, but it doesn't seem to happen when you continuously re-dose with the same batch that was producing that 4.

@Negi I agree. I am open to considering all types of theories here. However, based on what I have seen personally and all of the reading I have done, I feel like the quality/purity of the MDMA has to be a major factor.

Also, I want to add that I am not just basing this on memory. I have 8mm movies that show me, friends, acquaintances totally off our faces on pills from 2000 to 2003. I also have photos. Obviously, can't share for privacy reasons, but people rolling on subpar product do not even look the same as people rolling on good product. There is an objective, observable, noticeable difference in how people hold their jaws, body movement, eye movement, eye dilation etc.

It was a long time ago...but yes, I did test at least one of the totally bunk batches. If I remember correctly, it was a brownish/yellow on Marquis. Keep in mind, I didn't need the reagent to tell me this at the time. It was straight up crap. 1 hour after taking I knew I had gotten ripped off. It was the pre-darknet days, bought at a concert.

I am open to the idea that there is lots of sub par product out there, and I've just been fortunate on the darknet. I do find it difficult to believe that some of the brightest folks on this thread with substantial chemistry experience can't pinpoint it though. You would think through so much effort it would be known at this point what the issue is. Additionally, I'm curious why everyone thinks MDMA has seen such a huge growth with especially the younger generation, if it was really just producing subpar experiences? There has to be a large amount of good product out there for such a drug to spread in popularity so substantially no? I can't imagine all these teens and twenty somethings jumped on the bandwagon for a tired, anti-social, negative feeling experience?

I wish you all the best in the search! I'll check back in a few months and see if anything has been uncovered. Good luck guys.

 

[indigoaura]

It was a long time ago...but yes, I did test at least one of the totally bunk batches. If I remember correctly, it was a brownish/yellow on Marquis. Keep in mind, I didn't need the reagent to tell me this at the time. It was straight up crap. 1 hour after taking I knew I had gotten ripped off. It was the pre-darknet days, bought at a concert.

I am open to the idea that there is lots of sub par product out there, and I've just been fortunate on the darknet. I do find it difficult to believe that some of the brightest folks on this thread with substantial chemistry experience can't pinpoint it though. You would think through so much effort it would be known at this point what the issue is. Additionally, I'm curious why everyone thinks MDMA has seen such a huge growth with especially the younger generation, if it was really just producing subpar experiences? There has to be a large amount of good product out there for such a drug to spread in popularity so substantially no? I can't imagine all these teens and twenty somethings jumped on the bandwagon for a tired, anti-social, negative feeling experience?

I wish you all the best in the search! I'll check back in a few months and see if anything has been uncovered. Good luck guys.

I think if those chemistry minded people had access to the right testing equipment, we could very quickly move the conversation forward in one way or another. Unfortunately, we don't have access to the tools we need to figure anything out.

 

[Negi]

I think if those chemistry minded people had access to the right testing equipment, we could very quickly move the conversation forward in one way or another. Unfortunately, we don't have access to the tools we need to figure anything out.

What specific tests do you think would be more conclusive than the multiple results from established and experienced drug testing services?

 

[indigoaura]

What specific tests do you think would be more conclusive than the multiple results from established and experienced drug testing services?

I think it would help to be able to look at the actual raw data as opposed to the interpretation of the machine according to the standards they have installed and the settings they have set up. Also, it would help to look at both GCMS and NMR data.

There have been several studies that specifically talk about some of the more difficult to identify compounds not showing up at all on GCMS due to "overlapping peaks." Some studies indicated that you have to look at NMR to see the contaminant.

When other compounds exist that have the potential to producethe same or nearly identical mass spectrum as the drug of interest, the identification bygas chromatography (GC)-MS must be based primarily upon the ability of the chromatographic system to separate the counterfeit substance from the actual drug of abuse. Those substances coeluting with the drug of abuse in chromatographic systems could be misidentified as the drug of abuse (Aalberg).

Another study found that out of 28 seized ecstasy tablets in Spain in 2007, 9 of the 28 contained a regioisomer for MDMA.

The analytical results indicate that the samples in which an uncoupling of the peak assigned to the MDMA was observed contained 2 or more of the 10 regioisomers present in MDMA. The presence of one, or several, of these regioisomers can easily go undetected in routine analyses and may lead to important measurement errors.

Of the 28 samples analyzed, 9 were found to have high impurity levels of compounds with an equal molecular weight to MDMA (regioisomers of the substance) but different structure and thus having a different effect on the organism. These compounds are often due to a total lack of quality control, in both the products used in the synthesis (precursors, solvents and other reactives) and the development of the process itself (insufficient reaction time, etc.).

The analytical results indicate that the samples, in which overlapped peaks assigned to MDMA were observed, contain 2 or more of the 10 regioisomers that exist in MDMA. The presence of one, or several, of these regioisomers can easily be missed in routine analyses and can lead to an important error of quantification.

Link: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ethylamphetamine_in_clandestine_ecstasy_pills

Both of these studies I have as PDF files if you would like them. When I try to link them directly, the links expire and then are dead links. So, if this link does not work for you, let me know.

Also, from talking to both Drugs Data and Energy Control, it is clear to me that it is not a 100% exact science. When I asked IEC what made up the 20% of my sample that was not documented, they told me they would have to run a different analysis in order to determine that. In other words, they have the settings set up a particular way, to meet the needs of most of their customers. They can only identify chemicals they have the standards for, and they do not have the machine calibrated to identify byproducts. I still have to send that sample back to them for a byproducts analysis, but I have been isolating in my house due to high COVID in my area and I have not wanted to go in a post office.

To be clear - it is not that I think that the drug testing services are doing anything wrong, but my understanding is that the machine has to know what it is looking for in order for it to be identified. Just recently, Drugs Data mentioned that they were busy with a project that involved loading a whole bunch of new chemical standards to search for. Another example would be the recent study where the researchers had to identify the new M-Alpha compound that was found in an ecstasy tablet, but they did not know what it was at first.

So, overall, I think that unless people are looking very specifically and with a fine tooth comb, there are a lot of substances that may go undetected. This is documented in research and discussed at length. I don't mean any of this as a criticism of the drug testing companies, who are providing an amazing service. But, they are not set up to search to that level of detail.

 

[user666]

What specific tests do you think would be more conclusive than the multiple results from established and experienced drug testing services?

Derivatized liquid chromatography in a chiral column followed by two or more molecular identification methods of EACH fraction, i.e.: ¹³C-NMR, ¹H-NMR, Raman, IR, etc.
...and most importantly - access to raw chromatograms and spectrograms.

 

[vecktor]

I think if those chemistry minded people had access to the right testing equipment, we could very quickly move the conversation forward in one way or another. Unfortunately, we don't have access to the tools we need to figure anything out.

The hold up is more the licenses required, there are significant barriers to obtaining a license and if you say something the government doesn't like or doesn't want to hear then the license is removed (witness Shulgin),

There is an idea that the drug testing organizations primarily actually care about providing accurate information to the users rather than just making money running through as many tests as possible, with a profitable sideline of selling the information to law enforcement intelligence and grabbing easy state funding. This seems to be a truth no matter how noble the original intention of an organization was.

This Faustian bargain is how academics though to drug testing organizations Like DD and EC are controlled and owned by the ideological drug warriors, they are simply two sides of the same coin. These drug testing organizations would not exist without prohibition and so the status quo remains because it suits all the players. The users are incidental to this power game, nobody cares about them.

For example Drugs Data already have the full data output of every test they have ever done, as does Energy Control and Wedinos yet it seems they are all reluctant to provide this data they already have, coming up with bullshit excuses (EC in particular), the question is why? I suspect they do not want their data examined too closely because they fear their methodology may be flawed and what they tell their customers is not really supported by their data or methodology. Stateside it could be that the old DEA rules that prohibited analytically quantifying anonymous samples are still being enforced on Schedule 1 license holders. Either way there is no money in providing an answer which is sad because we are all poorer for not knowing.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Which meh description, a few new ones ones have emerged in recent pages. Did it:

• Immediately make them feel worse than before they took the MDMA?
• Give many of the classic MDMA effects but just be very be short in duration?
• Make them feel relaxed, sleepy and not want to talk to anyone? (without any euphoria)

Lack of euphoria. Short duration. Feel a desire to redose to try and chase after an effect that's not quite happening. I think first time energy levels were ok (but didn't seem anything special), but subsequent occasions were more sedating. Said enjoyed it, but seemed like nothing special compared to anything else. Certainly not the 'ecstasy' that xtc should give.

I then run past him the idea that the current generation were happy if they just got wasted, and he said that was true.

So I read through the inhibiting impurities paper, was it ever discussed in detail in this thread? Anyway, in it the two impurities found to have an inhibiting effect on releasing by MDMA were specific impurities created during the Leukart method. They did not seem to be especially potent compared to MDMA, byproduct 12 (the one they give the most information for) has little effect on SERT and NET activity caused by MDMA when present at ~33% of the MDMA concentration, and needed to be present in equal quantity to MDMA to reduce the SERT and NET releasing by more than 20%. DAT was different, with the 33% byproduct concentration having a ~25% reduction in MDMA induced release. This makes sense considering MDMA has a considerably higher affinity for SERT and NET than DAT.

Yes, but my point is that we have a few hypotheses now that have reasonable evidence to say they 'might' be the source of the problem. I've always felt active impurities felt like the cause because of the nature of the come up being clamped off, and this paper gives at least some support to the possibility of that. Ultimately, I and I hope everyone else, will only be convinced by high quality analysis of meh and magic samples. We're all just discussing theories at this point.

Which impurities exactly?
What synthesis route yeilds these?
Is it one route or multiple routes?
Is it that mdma hmcp thing I've seen on here somewhere?

1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanamine and N-formyl1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-prop-2-yl-amine. Via Leucart-Wallach and reductive amination but not via bromopropane method if I'm reading it right.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

The hold up is more the licenses required, there are significant barriers to obtaining a license and if you say something the government doesn't like or doesn't want to hear then the license is removed (witness Shulgin),

There is an idea that the drug testing organizations primarily actually care about providing accurate information to the users rather than just making money running through as many tests as possible, with a profitable sideline of selling the information to law enforcement intelligence and grabbing easy state funding. This seems to be a truth no matter how noble the original intention of an organization was.

This Faustian bargain is how academics though to drug testing organizations Like DD and EC are controlled and owned by the ideological drug warriors, they are simply two sides of the same coin. These drug testing organizations would not exist without prohibition and so the status quo remains because it suits all the players. The users are incidental to this power game, nobody cares about them.

For example Drugs Data already have the full data output of every test they have ever done, as does Energy Control and Wedinos yet it seems they are all reluctant to provide this data they already have, coming up with bullshit excuses (EC in particular), the question is why? I suspect they do not want their data examined too closely because they fear their methodology may be flawed and what they tell their customers is not really supported by their data or methodology. Stateside it could be that the old DEA rules that prohibited analytically quantifying anonymous samples are still being enforced on Schedule 1 license holders. Either way there is no money in providing an answer which is sad because we are all poorer for not knowing.

Do you think there's any chance of talking someone from the research community into looking into this or is getting the testing organisations to up their game about the only option for a decent analysis to be done?