indigoaura
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Glubrahnum, I always heard that too. But, that was not the case in this scenario. It delayed orgasms, but it did not prevent erections.
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MDMA &
Empathogenic
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MDMA Moderators:
What is wrong with the MDMA available today?
- Thread starter Le Junk
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@Beenhead- Indeed you are right but while the HBr may be the heavier acid/salt, you can still achieve 99.9% pure MDMA HBr just like you can achieve 99.9% pure MDMA HCl.
It's not about varied dosage between different salts so much as I'm arguing you can have higher than 80'something pure MDMA HCl.
It's good to note though that each salt form does have different dosage. This is why Glubra told his friends to up the dosage of their mdma because they had the tartrate which has a higher molecular weight than the HCl. Different salts can have different effects, durations, etc, as well.
@scatterday, that's exactly where the myth came from.
-GC
It's not about varied dosage between different salts so much as I'm arguing you can have higher than 80'something pure MDMA HCl.
It's good to note though that each salt form does have different dosage. This is why Glubra told his friends to up the dosage of their mdma because they had the tartrate which has a higher molecular weight than the HCl. Different salts can have different effects, durations, etc, as well.
@scatterday, that's exactly where the myth came from.
-GC
SympatheticMD
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I love coming back after some time off to see how far this discussion goes. I particularly like the specific descriptions people provide of their experiences because I think they really do contribute valuable information. This is a pretty sophisticated crowd, so we are clearly allowing for individual variation affecting the experience – environment, genetics, age, drug use history, etc. Nonetheless, I think the stories are super helpful.
I’m one of the few geezers lucky enough to experience the stuff that started it all back in the early 80s. I’m still in agreement with scatterday that safrole is a very key factor in what made that product so distinct and so good. Yet I’m also willing to bet that a second important ingredient was inside those old pills, some factor X that was either a deliberate component or a fortunate by-product that made the pill so good.
Back when the “Dallas group” was dominating the market in Texas (and getting their supply from San Francisco), they started selling “designer drugs” once X was declared illegal, and they called it Adam. We were told it was chemically similar to X but not actually X. Indigo suggested that Adam was either MDA or ?MDAE?....?MDEA?
This means that in 1989, they were already selling things that were likely combinations and of MDMA and MDA, or other chemically-similar substances. And I can tell you that those drugs were very good. I would wager a small amount of money that the stuff back then was not at all this “pure” MDMA in the way you guys have been discussing more in the last few posts. And yet the pill produced an effect that was dominated by empathy, sensuality, and a relaxed energy – very different from a dopaminergic energy. You felt like you could fly, or swim and breath underwater. But you didn’t want to clean the house or write a paper. (Yet there wasan enormous amount of teeth clenching, now that I think about it) Also worth noting, is that feeling sleepy or yawning was never an issue.
All I’m suggesting is that the stuff sold from the mid 80s to at least the mid 90s had its fair share of MDA or some factor X that potentiated the effect of pure MDMA. (or the chemists who made it were doing some step that affected the isomeric ratio).
The MDMA from this period was NOT particularly a dancing drug. It was a rub on your neighbor, lick them, brush their hair, ask them if what you were doing felt good and how you could make them feel better. If someone left the room or started to come down, it was the saddest thing in the world. You guys were talking about having sex on MDMA. There is no way I could have had sex on this stuff. I probably tried, but the sexual response, particularly in males, involves a very complicated coordination between the sympathetic and the parasympathetic systems that it would seem almost impossible achieve if you were taking MDMA alone without some other drug perking you up (at least in the period 1985-1994). I remember laying in a bathtub and rubbing on my boyfriend, and I got so lost in the fantastic feeling that I slipped under the water and didn’t notice. He had to basically save me from what would have been a very peaceful drowning.
I moved to LA in 1994, which would have affected the supply I was getting. I also just got older and gained a tolerance that allowed me to take X and go to a club and want to dance. In my experience, from 1994-2000, the MDMA turned a little more “uppity”. I still would not describe it as an amphetamine (or dopaminergic) UP effect. But the desire to dance and even the ability to talk to someone without licking them or stroking their hair increased. Yet even then, there was still that intense “come on” effect, where you were completely overwhelmed for a little bit before the wonderfulness set in. You guys seem to know a lot about the pill data – was there any change in what was found in them in the late 90s? Or what things were being used as the precursor chemicals?
Sadly, I would be a great person to contribute to how the experience of MDMA changed after 2008. But I stopped doing if from 2000-2012 or so. And all I can say, is that when I tried it again in 2012, it just wasn’t the same animal. I also had never done it in crystal form until 2012.
The person who started this entire chain, the lovely and incomparable Le Junk, could answer some of these questions. He said that he has access to product that is made in exactly the same way it was in 1985. Wouldn’t it be great to see what that actually is? And even better, how it was made?
G-Chem: you posted a few studies comparing the R vs S effects on animal behavior. And you also started discussing aging and tolerance.
I read one cool study that indicated MDMA made of purely R isomer could create a tolerance in rats who were later given MDMA of the S isomer or the racemic mixture. Only the R isomer could create a tolerance like this. In other words, in the name of fun, one could hypothesize that I was introduced to R-pure MDMA in my high school and teenage years, and this is the reason that I have such tolerance and a change of experience when I take racemic MDMA.
I don’t think that is the case, but it’s interesting to think about.
Lastly, I had the privilege to smell safrole-derived MDMA. It was brown, which I think is likely irrelevant. I would say it smells like Drakkar Noir. Sadly, I didn’t get to try it. Maybe I should beg in the name of science to see if it supports anything about my hypotheses. I still think that even safrole-made MDMA of today would be different than 20 years ago. And I sure would like to find out.
I’m one of the few geezers lucky enough to experience the stuff that started it all back in the early 80s. I’m still in agreement with scatterday that safrole is a very key factor in what made that product so distinct and so good. Yet I’m also willing to bet that a second important ingredient was inside those old pills, some factor X that was either a deliberate component or a fortunate by-product that made the pill so good.
Back when the “Dallas group” was dominating the market in Texas (and getting their supply from San Francisco), they started selling “designer drugs” once X was declared illegal, and they called it Adam. We were told it was chemically similar to X but not actually X. Indigo suggested that Adam was either MDA or ?MDAE?....?MDEA?
This means that in 1989, they were already selling things that were likely combinations and of MDMA and MDA, or other chemically-similar substances. And I can tell you that those drugs were very good. I would wager a small amount of money that the stuff back then was not at all this “pure” MDMA in the way you guys have been discussing more in the last few posts. And yet the pill produced an effect that was dominated by empathy, sensuality, and a relaxed energy – very different from a dopaminergic energy. You felt like you could fly, or swim and breath underwater. But you didn’t want to clean the house or write a paper. (Yet there wasan enormous amount of teeth clenching, now that I think about it) Also worth noting, is that feeling sleepy or yawning was never an issue.
All I’m suggesting is that the stuff sold from the mid 80s to at least the mid 90s had its fair share of MDA or some factor X that potentiated the effect of pure MDMA. (or the chemists who made it were doing some step that affected the isomeric ratio).
The MDMA from this period was NOT particularly a dancing drug. It was a rub on your neighbor, lick them, brush their hair, ask them if what you were doing felt good and how you could make them feel better. If someone left the room or started to come down, it was the saddest thing in the world. You guys were talking about having sex on MDMA. There is no way I could have had sex on this stuff. I probably tried, but the sexual response, particularly in males, involves a very complicated coordination between the sympathetic and the parasympathetic systems that it would seem almost impossible achieve if you were taking MDMA alone without some other drug perking you up (at least in the period 1985-1994). I remember laying in a bathtub and rubbing on my boyfriend, and I got so lost in the fantastic feeling that I slipped under the water and didn’t notice. He had to basically save me from what would have been a very peaceful drowning.
I moved to LA in 1994, which would have affected the supply I was getting. I also just got older and gained a tolerance that allowed me to take X and go to a club and want to dance. In my experience, from 1994-2000, the MDMA turned a little more “uppity”. I still would not describe it as an amphetamine (or dopaminergic) UP effect. But the desire to dance and even the ability to talk to someone without licking them or stroking their hair increased. Yet even then, there was still that intense “come on” effect, where you were completely overwhelmed for a little bit before the wonderfulness set in. You guys seem to know a lot about the pill data – was there any change in what was found in them in the late 90s? Or what things were being used as the precursor chemicals?
Sadly, I would be a great person to contribute to how the experience of MDMA changed after 2008. But I stopped doing if from 2000-2012 or so. And all I can say, is that when I tried it again in 2012, it just wasn’t the same animal. I also had never done it in crystal form until 2012.
The person who started this entire chain, the lovely and incomparable Le Junk, could answer some of these questions. He said that he has access to product that is made in exactly the same way it was in 1985. Wouldn’t it be great to see what that actually is? And even better, how it was made?
G-Chem: you posted a few studies comparing the R vs S effects on animal behavior. And you also started discussing aging and tolerance.
I read one cool study that indicated MDMA made of purely R isomer could create a tolerance in rats who were later given MDMA of the S isomer or the racemic mixture. Only the R isomer could create a tolerance like this. In other words, in the name of fun, one could hypothesize that I was introduced to R-pure MDMA in my high school and teenage years, and this is the reason that I have such tolerance and a change of experience when I take racemic MDMA.
I don’t think that is the case, but it’s interesting to think about.
Lastly, I had the privilege to smell safrole-derived MDMA. It was brown, which I think is likely irrelevant. I would say it smells like Drakkar Noir. Sadly, I didn’t get to try it. Maybe I should beg in the name of science to see if it supports anything about my hypotheses. I still think that even safrole-made MDMA of today would be different than 20 years ago. And I sure would like to find out.
^^^Indeed there were changes then. It seems from a few sources that around mid 90's, they went from safrole to PMK. And a few years later they started to faze out the leuckart reaction in favor of al/hg reduction. There's even an article from Mixmag in the 90's that a great OG member of bluelight called "phase dancer" posted about in 2000. They say something along the lines of the change from safrole to PMK lost the rush or intensity of the old stuff, I'll have to look that up again.
I think the change from leuckart to al/hg had more effect on the different experiences though. My goal is hopefully one day to find a way to try leuckart mdma but that is likely never to happen
I think if there was any reason for difference during your time MD that'd be it.
Also what you describe does sound spot on everything I've noticed with MDA too, and Adam is slang for MDA. It definitely is not a dance drug 80% of the time, i prefer at home cuddling and soaking it all in. Ive had moments on MDA where all I can do is look at someone with wide eyes and soak it all in. To be honest I've been much more lovey and empathogenic while on MDA but unless MDMA is mixed in too the comedown is brutal.
Theres reason for me to believe MDA could be the culprit but there's many reasons it couldn't be either.. After trying so many different and unique batches of MDMA I firmly believe it can vary a lot as a drug. I think back then it was MDMA.
I should also note my comments on sleepiness pertain to after the drug has pretty much worn off. During the experience it should be fairly energizing no matter your age, but as I've gotten older soon as it wears off I'm more likely to wanna pass out than stay up and continue the party. Come to think of it though I'm just older and more tired in general, back then I had no job and no worries, now I'm trying to run a business.. Fuck gettin old sucks
Give the safrole smelling mdma a try, it may not be great but you could be pleasantly surprised..
Also!! Could you link or ref that study? I've never seen that one I don't think. That sounds very interesting though, and could give us further clues.
One more thing.. I've got some MDMA from about 5yrs ago that produced in not only me but a few others "one of the best experience of their lives." I can count maybe 3 rolls that were those next level experiences, that remind you why life is so precious. (Not your average roll, typically most people only get one of these if they do at all. Beyond what is described even throughout this thread. Beyond description period.) This stuff gave me one of those 3 (the other two being my first time trying mdma and my first time trying 5-mapb). I'm thinking about dosing what I've got left once or twice this summer for kicks n giggles to see if it's still as magical. It's weird though it's taken on a chalky look when before it was clear crystal with a faint safrole smell..
-GC
I think the change from leuckart to al/hg had more effect on the different experiences though. My goal is hopefully one day to find a way to try leuckart mdma but that is likely never to happen
I think if there was any reason for difference during your time MD that'd be it.Also what you describe does sound spot on everything I've noticed with MDA too, and Adam is slang for MDA. It definitely is not a dance drug 80% of the time, i prefer at home cuddling and soaking it all in. Ive had moments on MDA where all I can do is look at someone with wide eyes and soak it all in. To be honest I've been much more lovey and empathogenic while on MDA but unless MDMA is mixed in too the comedown is brutal.
Theres reason for me to believe MDA could be the culprit but there's many reasons it couldn't be either.. After trying so many different and unique batches of MDMA I firmly believe it can vary a lot as a drug. I think back then it was MDMA.
I should also note my comments on sleepiness pertain to after the drug has pretty much worn off. During the experience it should be fairly energizing no matter your age, but as I've gotten older soon as it wears off I'm more likely to wanna pass out than stay up and continue the party. Come to think of it though I'm just older and more tired in general, back then I had no job and no worries, now I'm trying to run a business.. Fuck gettin old sucks
Give the safrole smelling mdma a try, it may not be great but you could be pleasantly surprised..
Also!! Could you link or ref that study? I've never seen that one I don't think. That sounds very interesting though, and could give us further clues.
One more thing.. I've got some MDMA from about 5yrs ago that produced in not only me but a few others "one of the best experience of their lives." I can count maybe 3 rolls that were those next level experiences, that remind you why life is so precious. (Not your average roll, typically most people only get one of these if they do at all. Beyond what is described even throughout this thread. Beyond description period.) This stuff gave me one of those 3 (the other two being my first time trying mdma and my first time trying 5-mapb). I'm thinking about dosing what I've got left once or twice this summer for kicks n giggles to see if it's still as magical. It's weird though it's taken on a chalky look when before it was clear crystal with a faint safrole smell..
-GC
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SympatheticMD
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Obviously, I don't know the technical details about the two types of synthesis, but I agree with you because we hit at the same thing - something about how it was synthesized changed what the components were at the end.
I was just trying to point out that MDA was absolutely floating around back then, and the more I read this stuff and reflect back on the stuff I did back then - the story reflects the story now. There were differences in how it felt, and a lot of it came back to where I got it. Nonetheless, it was all just so so different than what I've had recently. I'm sure there are competent people making really good stuff, but my assumption is that finding that is a local/regional thing, which is all a bit out of my reach. The guy who showed me the "safrole" MDMA will never let me have any. It was made locally, and is somehow tied to a trippy/hippy band which gives it some credit in my book. The guy also wanted me to look at something about the crystaline structure within the rock, but I didn't bother. I just wanted to smell it.
What do you think of the Drakkar Noir smell? Do you even know what that is? I'm not sure my friend agreed with what I was smelling, but he mostly wanted to get it out of my hand and back stored away.
I'm assuming you want a link to the rat study about the tolerance and the R isomer? I'll look - and I may have screwed up my summary of it. I'm afraid this will cut me off so I'll post the link in a second.
I was just trying to point out that MDA was absolutely floating around back then, and the more I read this stuff and reflect back on the stuff I did back then - the story reflects the story now. There were differences in how it felt, and a lot of it came back to where I got it. Nonetheless, it was all just so so different than what I've had recently. I'm sure there are competent people making really good stuff, but my assumption is that finding that is a local/regional thing, which is all a bit out of my reach. The guy who showed me the "safrole" MDMA will never let me have any. It was made locally, and is somehow tied to a trippy/hippy band which gives it some credit in my book. The guy also wanted me to look at something about the crystaline structure within the rock, but I didn't bother. I just wanted to smell it.
What do you think of the Drakkar Noir smell? Do you even know what that is? I'm not sure my friend agreed with what I was smelling, but he mostly wanted to get it out of my hand and back stored away.
I'm assuming you want a link to the rat study about the tolerance and the R isomer? I'll look - and I may have screwed up my summary of it. I'm afraid this will cut me off so I'll post the link in a second.
SympatheticMD
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Ok, here it is. As usual, I can't access the entire article.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1369-1600.2009.00187.x
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1369-1600.2009.00187.x
My system is being dumb and it ain't popping up right but I'll check it out later.
And I definitely agree MDA highly resembles what is described at times. MDA also was popular and apparently easier to synthesize. Nowadays certain markets (mainly parts of Europe) don't have hardly any MDA at all cuz of the synthetic routes most popular for the area. Clandestine drug labs tend to synthesize multiple drugs only if the synthesis is easily changed to produce the different drug. Certain synthesis are easy to change up than others in a nutshell. This is also why the leuckart reaction was so popular once mdma was made illegal because it was the main route for speed chemists and they only had to obtain a few different precursors. Once you get familiar with a route you tend to stick with it unless a new route shows obvious superiority.
Al/hg reduction showed that superiority (or so people thought) with increased more reliable yields with more "pure" end product.
For you MD I believe the two impurities "n-formyl-mdma and DMMDA" which were found in leuckart synthesized mdma of your time will be the keys to unlocking your question. Unfortunately little is known about either of these substances, what little I could find was of closely analogous substances and then extrapolated best I could.. Both appear to be active, that's about all I know..
And I ain't never smelt no drakkar noir.. Sounds fancy lol. I haven't been privelaged to the finer things in life, hence my name (short for ghetto_chem from my other online personas). I'm the kinda guy that walks around in clothes that are about to fall off, I barely graduated high school with a .9gpa and learned everything I know from books I find at thrift stores, online articles, forums, you name it.. (Edit: I see it's perfume of some sort. Knew it was something sophisticated haha.)
-GC
And I definitely agree MDA highly resembles what is described at times. MDA also was popular and apparently easier to synthesize. Nowadays certain markets (mainly parts of Europe) don't have hardly any MDA at all cuz of the synthetic routes most popular for the area. Clandestine drug labs tend to synthesize multiple drugs only if the synthesis is easily changed to produce the different drug. Certain synthesis are easy to change up than others in a nutshell. This is also why the leuckart reaction was so popular once mdma was made illegal because it was the main route for speed chemists and they only had to obtain a few different precursors. Once you get familiar with a route you tend to stick with it unless a new route shows obvious superiority.
Al/hg reduction showed that superiority (or so people thought) with increased more reliable yields with more "pure" end product.
For you MD I believe the two impurities "n-formyl-mdma and DMMDA" which were found in leuckart synthesized mdma of your time will be the keys to unlocking your question. Unfortunately little is known about either of these substances, what little I could find was of closely analogous substances and then extrapolated best I could.. Both appear to be active, that's about all I know..
And I ain't never smelt no drakkar noir.. Sounds fancy lol. I haven't been privelaged to the finer things in life, hence my name (short for ghetto_chem from my other online personas). I'm the kinda guy that walks around in clothes that are about to fall off, I barely graduated high school with a .9gpa and learned everything I know from books I find at thrift stores, online articles, forums, you name it.. (Edit: I see it's perfume of some sort. Knew it was something sophisticated haha.)
-GC
SympatheticMD
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I'm super excited to look into those two substances, although anything with "formyl" included in it sounds like a bummer. Did you ever glance at that super weird manifesto I posted a link for you to access, where the guy lists all the different places that MDMA can act in the brain = all the way from receptor sites, to calcium channels, to G-protein coupled receptors and intracellular stuff. I'm sure that most be true for most psychoactive substances, but it impressed me.
Drakkar Noir is far from fancy. It is what the eighth grade boys poured on themselves as cologne in the early 80s, and it will therefore always be a strong trigger for nostalgic emotions in older women. You could wear it and go on a Cougar hunt in your oversized clothing.
Drakkar Noir is far from fancy. It is what the eighth grade boys poured on themselves as cologne in the early 80s, and it will therefore always be a strong trigger for nostalgic emotions in older women. You could wear it and go on a Cougar hunt in your oversized clothing.
scatterday
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My life story right here summarised in a sentence.
Could you please link it again? May have missed that one.
scatterday
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Another thing I'd like to note is the dutch mdma feels super mongy/drowsy and sedative. I don't feel very clear headed until a wash has been performed, The product I used to consume was uplifting and enlightening, I'd be happy to converse with any stranger, hug/kiss them and dance for hours. Along with that feeling of everything sounding great, Smoking a cigarette, Sitting on a couch.
Though the bruxism, nystagmus and mydriasis were dead give away's. Because my eyes are hazel/brown the pupil literally fills up the entire iris appearing there is nothing left.
Though the bruxism, nystagmus and mydriasis were dead give away's. Because my eyes are hazel/brown the pupil literally fills up the entire iris appearing there is nothing left.
Na I must have missed that.. I'll look back and try to find it. Indeed that formyl sounds menacing but we must remember that substances can have seemingly dangerous substitutions like 4-FA which is fluorinated amphetamine. Everything in my heart, body and soul tell me a fluorinated compound should be toxic especially with 4-CA being a serotonin neurotoxin; but all the research on it since it's been available doesn't seem to indicate as much.
I saw one research paper that studied the pharmacology of mdma impurities and they found two that were indeed fairly active (both from leuckart.) One of the substances was an off analog of mdma, the other was its "formyl" brother. They did not test the substances I mentioned above, but from this I can extrapolate that indeed n-formyl-mdma is active as well.
Then some may ask "well how much formyl-mdma is even present?" Again we don't know exactly for mdma but research was done on PMA from the same leuckart synthesis and they found around 20% formyl-PMA. Note the leuckart seems to work better for primary amines over secondary amines, meaning this reaction works better for MDA than MDMA. If the primary amine PMA (which should react better and more cleanly than a secondary amine) has that much formyl-PMA as an impurity, we can only surmise that mdma from the leuckart contained significant amounts of its n-formyl analog.
As for DMMDA, my guess is it may be somewhat similar to MDA. Not sure how active it is but definitely not inactive.
Depends on how you grew up I suppose.. And I wear raggedy clothes not oversized also I may be getting a bit old for cougars but doesn't hurt to dream.
-GC
I saw one research paper that studied the pharmacology of mdma impurities and they found two that were indeed fairly active (both from leuckart.) One of the substances was an off analog of mdma, the other was its "formyl" brother. They did not test the substances I mentioned above, but from this I can extrapolate that indeed n-formyl-mdma is active as well.
Then some may ask "well how much formyl-mdma is even present?" Again we don't know exactly for mdma but research was done on PMA from the same leuckart synthesis and they found around 20% formyl-PMA. Note the leuckart seems to work better for primary amines over secondary amines, meaning this reaction works better for MDA than MDMA. If the primary amine PMA (which should react better and more cleanly than a secondary amine) has that much formyl-PMA as an impurity, we can only surmise that mdma from the leuckart contained significant amounts of its n-formyl analog.
As for DMMDA, my guess is it may be somewhat similar to MDA. Not sure how active it is but definitely not inactive.
Depends on how you grew up I suppose.. And I wear raggedy clothes not oversized
also I may be getting a bit old for cougars but doesn't hurt to dream.-GC
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scatterday
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If we crack this mystery you might think otherwise. MDMA has always lowered my inhibitions for attractiveness in others of the opposite gender/age. I remember hooking up with a 38 year old back in my younger adolescent days. Consensual and above age of course and the experience was unlike any other. Hooked up with many older women whilst on MDMA those same days and it was unforgettable. The emotions, empathy and love towards them was incredible
Another private story, NSFW- I remember being at a house party on either the red or blue doves circulating pre 2008 and going into a bedroom and receiving/giving plenty of foreplay from this gorgeous English girl who moved from the UK to Aus a little after this consumption of our ecstasy prior to this incident that took place, Our arousal for each other was incredible and extremely sensual/sexual. Lots of foreplay, hugging and kissing. We didn't care at the time who walked in and just couldn't manage to contain ourselves. It was just something we knew had to be done and it was one of the most memorable times to date.
Apologies for derailing the thread it was just a very memorable moment for us. Unfortunately don't speak to this english woman anymore though we have seen eachother
I have plenty of stories but this isn't the time and place
In terms of dress code I've always been into expensive denim jeans (Nobody ect). As for music hard dance music (Oldschool hardstyle, trance/hard trance, psytrance, D&B and a dabble of electro among the popular 2000's era hits, Reardless of that in terms of dress code it would be a pair of jeans and a hard dance music themes hoodie. AKA Hard Kandy, PHD)
There's something about the English accent that pleases/arouses me with females.
Anyways back on to topic
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scatterday
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I'd like to add this as further credibility to my amphetamine statement. have decided upon sending washed and unwashed mdma to the gc/ms laboratory even though it's going to cost me a small fortune, The same one I sent a xanax off to and see if they have access to the equipment to identity isomer ratios.
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SympatheticMD
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I can barely even read (fuck I can't spell ya'll anymore). What is going on with me. I made the terrible mistake of becoming obsessed, and I stayed up all night finally giving into my curiosity about the DW.
And I'm just too fucking old. That is some hard stuff to get man. I was right there, I had my IpnVanisher thing that makes it look like I'm in Montana or whatever, and I understand that eventually I need to get Tails and Linux and turn completely Snowden.
But I just don't understand IP addresses, and I think I made some super rookie mistakes. And I'll never understand whatever the step is...God I can't even say it... some coding/encrypting shit that takes these long strings of data.. But I don't really know where or when to put them.
As a result, I could find any of the super fun stuff - like a dark web link with the New York Times. Or the New Yorker. Either way...I was in. And even though I'd never understand it, I found some group that appears to be doing insider trading over the DW. I'm so totally naive. I never even thought of that. It illustrates super clearly, however, that a drug dealer and an investment banker dealing with insider trading are the more similar than the banker would care to admit. I'm kind of hoping that those guys (I've met my fare share of banker guys) are just as dumb as I am about internet technology.
I found a few discussions that addressed what we've been talking about on this site, but the contributors didn't know very much. Not a high school dropout chemist in site. (I know you graduated G_Chem).
The only site I managed to fully penetrate seemed to be a group of entitled old men, who were so secretive you couldn't have a conversation. And they were all about money exchange. They kept dividing the internet users into ... Blackhats, ...and two other corny things. It was all way too boring UNTIL...
I did found a doctor who was going to use the internet to sell organs on the black market. That was a pretty strange thing to bump into amidst all these old geezers insisting that we as participants had to prove our value to the group before they would have a legitimate conversation with us about what DW resources were useful, safe, and relevant. So Mr Wierdo MD decided his contribution to the guys was to harvest organs and sell them to the highest bidder. Seriously, I just read that.
Now that I have rambled, I'd like to say that I'm super excited scatterday that you are going to sacrifice your hard earned money for the sake of knowledge. I'm pretty excited about it. I'm dying to hear what you find out.
Here is the link to the article you want:https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...0.2009.00187.x I am a tad worried about that address. the x seems kind of abrupt
And I'm just too fucking old. That is some hard stuff to get man. I was right there, I had my IpnVanisher thing that makes it look like I'm in Montana or whatever, and I understand that eventually I need to get Tails and Linux and turn completely Snowden.
But I just don't understand IP addresses, and I think I made some super rookie mistakes. And I'll never understand whatever the step is...God I can't even say it... some coding/encrypting shit that takes these long strings of data.. But I don't really know where or when to put them.
As a result, I could find any of the super fun stuff - like a dark web link with the New York Times. Or the New Yorker. Either way...I was in. And even though I'd never understand it, I found some group that appears to be doing insider trading over the DW. I'm so totally naive. I never even thought of that. It illustrates super clearly, however, that a drug dealer and an investment banker dealing with insider trading are the more similar than the banker would care to admit. I'm kind of hoping that those guys (I've met my fare share of banker guys) are just as dumb as I am about internet technology.
I found a few discussions that addressed what we've been talking about on this site, but the contributors didn't know very much. Not a high school dropout chemist in site. (I know you graduated G_Chem).
The only site I managed to fully penetrate seemed to be a group of entitled old men, who were so secretive you couldn't have a conversation. And they were all about money exchange. They kept dividing the internet users into ... Blackhats, ...and two other corny things. It was all way too boring UNTIL...
I did found a doctor who was going to use the internet to sell organs on the black market. That was a pretty strange thing to bump into amidst all these old geezers insisting that we as participants had to prove our value to the group before they would have a legitimate conversation with us about what DW resources were useful, safe, and relevant. So Mr Wierdo MD decided his contribution to the guys was to harvest organs and sell them to the highest bidder. Seriously, I just read that.
Now that I have rambled, I'd like to say that I'm super excited scatterday that you are going to sacrifice your hard earned money for the sake of knowledge. I'm pretty excited about it. I'm dying to hear what you find out.
Here is the link to the article you want:https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...0.2009.00187.x I am a tad worried about that address. the x seems kind of abrupt
^^^100% agree, scatterday your investment into this is well respected. My hat is off to you sir.
@MD- If it makes you feel better I can't understand the DW either.. Well I do but I don't feel I grasp it enough to safely buy stuff off there. That's crazy though!! I think your onto something too MD. We should really start to scour the DW for information we can't find on the clear web. I haven't looked yet but my guess is there is a Hive 2.0 esque site which we can talk with the guys actually producing our product.
MD, how many times have you tried MDMA post 2012 when you got back in? Where are you located roughly in the US? Also you mentioned the Dallas group, is that the product you obtained mostly in the late 80's/early 90's? If you don't mind I'd like to give myself a general profile/idea of your past use.
@scatterday- Haha we sound rather similar... Oh yea I definitely won't turn a beautiful older gal down, but I'm about 30 myself.. Still on that border of young looking but I might not be the cougar bait I once was lol.
I can relate to that story scatter. I've definitely had moments on mdma/MDA where I couldn't contain myself... A few come to mind where I was doing some pretty naughty stuff while in the same room as others, great times haha.
Generally though I prefer to "care for" others as opposed to getting sexual. So many drugs get me horny but very few give me empathy like mdma, so I try to utilize it for that purpose.
Please keep us updated, I'm very curious on these lab results. You should PM me a link as I may be interested as well once I've got money to spend. Really surprised it's in Aus of all places.. Their laws make U.K. look like summer camp.
-GC
@MD- If it makes you feel better I can't understand the DW either.. Well I do but I don't feel I grasp it enough to safely buy stuff off there. That's crazy though!! I think your onto something too MD. We should really start to scour the DW for information we can't find on the clear web. I haven't looked yet but my guess is there is a Hive 2.0 esque site which we can talk with the guys actually producing our product.
MD, how many times have you tried MDMA post 2012 when you got back in? Where are you located roughly in the US? Also you mentioned the Dallas group, is that the product you obtained mostly in the late 80's/early 90's? If you don't mind I'd like to give myself a general profile/idea of your past use.
@scatterday- Haha we sound rather similar... Oh yea I definitely won't turn a beautiful older gal down, but I'm about 30 myself.. Still on that border of young looking but I might not be the cougar bait I once was lol.
I can relate to that story scatter. I've definitely had moments on mdma/MDA where I couldn't contain myself... A few come to mind where I was doing some pretty naughty stuff while in the same room as others, great times haha.
Generally though I prefer to "care for" others as opposed to getting sexual. So many drugs get me horny but very few give me empathy like mdma, so I try to utilize it for that purpose.
Please keep us updated, I'm very curious on these lab results. You should PM me a link as I may be interested as well once I've got money to spend. Really surprised it's in Aus of all places.. Their laws make U.K. look like summer camp.
-GC
Just read that link MD, great job.. Never seen that one before.
First it should be noted that according to them, S-MDMA and racemic (R/S) produce behavioral sensitization whereas R-MDMA did not. This is interesting and means subsequent dosings produced a stronger effect. This goes against most people's idea that a tolerance occurs over time (aka loss of magic.)
As we know loss of magic signifies a loss of the empathy and love associated with mdma. Well unfortunately it's impossible to know how lovey a rat is feeling so they make these assessments based solely on locomotor activity. This now makes more sense as loss of magic is accompanied by an increased "stimulation" that isn't exactly regarded as pleasant.
So from that research I believe the study indicates that S-mdma and racemic actually cause loss of magic while r-mdma does not. Since we have nothing but locomotor activity to go on, we can never really truly know but based on all the other anecdotal information out there I think that theory is likely correct.
Another interesting thing is that R-MDMA was not inducing hyperactivity, and repeated administration actually decreased locomotor activity.. This could indicate a few things. It could indicate that it might be the cause of "mongy crap mdma." It could indicate a lack of addictive potential. Its hard to know for sure.
I still don't think R-MDMA is the culprit especially based on Glubras findings. I believe what we see in that study is showing us that R-MDMA may be the reason why mdma can last longer and be overall less compulsive for redosing. S-MDMA seems to be more compulsive as well as a higher chance for addictive potential.
What's most interesting is that when dosed together (racemic) R-MDMA actually increased hyperactivity while making the S-MDMAinduced behavioral sensitization "state dependent." Not sure what that means but I surmise that the R-MDMA reduces the changes in the brain which lead to compulsive redosing and potentially magic loss.
Strangely enough R-MDMA does sensitize to racemic mdma though. Not sure why that is..
Overall a very interesting research article that gives us a better idea of the two isomers. Still not sure what to think but my take away is that R-MDMA at the very least potentiates the S isomer while simultaneously reducing behavioral sensitization. It seems this behavioral sensitization is based solely on locomotor activity and as we know loss of magic is associated with an increased "stimulation." I theorize R-MDMA actually attenuates the loss of magic, and also attenuates the compulsion to redose or use too frequently.
This correlates somewhat with the changes we see of "today's" mdma. I often here people claim mdma is shorter acting these days, and many people redose a few times in a night. (Not normal in my book, the peak shouldn't be 90mins long, it should be 3-6hrs. And I rarely feel the need to redose.). Both of these would point towards S-MDMA. It also seems as many people "lose the magic" much quicker than they did years back, this would also point towards S isomer. The fact Glubras friends thoroughly enjoyed their R-MDMA heavy batch also seems to indicate it could be S-MDMA causing the problems. That is... If it's an isomer issue at all..
-GC
First it should be noted that according to them, S-MDMA and racemic (R/S) produce behavioral sensitization whereas R-MDMA did not. This is interesting and means subsequent dosings produced a stronger effect. This goes against most people's idea that a tolerance occurs over time (aka loss of magic.)
As we know loss of magic signifies a loss of the empathy and love associated with mdma. Well unfortunately it's impossible to know how lovey a rat is feeling so they make these assessments based solely on locomotor activity. This now makes more sense as loss of magic is accompanied by an increased "stimulation" that isn't exactly regarded as pleasant.
So from that research I believe the study indicates that S-mdma and racemic actually cause loss of magic while r-mdma does not. Since we have nothing but locomotor activity to go on, we can never really truly know but based on all the other anecdotal information out there I think that theory is likely correct.
Another interesting thing is that R-MDMA was not inducing hyperactivity, and repeated administration actually decreased locomotor activity.. This could indicate a few things. It could indicate that it might be the cause of "mongy crap mdma." It could indicate a lack of addictive potential. Its hard to know for sure.
I still don't think R-MDMA is the culprit especially based on Glubras findings. I believe what we see in that study is showing us that R-MDMA may be the reason why mdma can last longer and be overall less compulsive for redosing. S-MDMA seems to be more compulsive as well as a higher chance for addictive potential.
What's most interesting is that when dosed together (racemic) R-MDMA actually increased hyperactivity while making the S-MDMAinduced behavioral sensitization "state dependent." Not sure what that means but I surmise that the R-MDMA reduces the changes in the brain which lead to compulsive redosing and potentially magic loss.
Strangely enough R-MDMA does sensitize to racemic mdma though. Not sure why that is..
Overall a very interesting research article that gives us a better idea of the two isomers. Still not sure what to think but my take away is that R-MDMA at the very least potentiates the S isomer while simultaneously reducing behavioral sensitization. It seems this behavioral sensitization is based solely on locomotor activity and as we know loss of magic is associated with an increased "stimulation." I theorize R-MDMA actually attenuates the loss of magic, and also attenuates the compulsion to redose or use too frequently.
This correlates somewhat with the changes we see of "today's" mdma. I often here people claim mdma is shorter acting these days, and many people redose a few times in a night. (Not normal in my book, the peak shouldn't be 90mins long, it should be 3-6hrs. And I rarely feel the need to redose.). Both of these would point towards S-MDMA. It also seems as many people "lose the magic" much quicker than they did years back, this would also point towards S isomer. The fact Glubras friends thoroughly enjoyed their R-MDMA heavy batch also seems to indicate it could be S-MDMA causing the problems. That is... If it's an isomer issue at all..
-GC
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SympatheticMD
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2018
- Messages
- 55
I'm typing on this site instead of getting ready to fight a traffic ticket. But this is more fun.
A. Scatterday, you and I are reading these papers exactly opposite. I will admit that when I have looked over the paper I posted, I in no way was fully engaged, sober, or reading slowly. But my take was that the R isomer when introduced alone caused desensensitivity to either S or racemic product down the road. I will absolutely admit that its likely I reversed it.
However, I think we agree that the S-isomer is more "up" because the rats ass temperature increases and they sniff ass more and move around,l while the R rats are more chill. I don't think that says too much about what WE feel, but I do know I'd rather be chill than run around smelling ass and feeling hot.
I also don't expect the wash to produce an isolate of one isomer of the other. Id bet the tiny differences we might feel (and I bet it is more subtle than that) would be due to the ratios in the pills. But nobody has showed me a paper yet that really nailed how the R isomer is responsible for love that lasts for decades. I'm really, I still have that orange juice lid and Charlie's sweater.
There IS a sight I think I can access on the DW called DW avengers or something. one of the geezers on the sight I joined told the other guy who is a doctor (harvesting organs) that he should join up with that group because they get heavy into the pharmacology of the drugs in addition to the testing.
I have a feeling, based on the personalities I've seen so far, that I will be underwhelmed. BUT YOU NEVER KNOW.
I'm going to ask my police officer friend if I need to worry about the fact that I'm going so deep into all the web stuff in addition to the discussions we have here. It looks super bad on paper. Not many people fit the geek/thrill-seeking type often. So remind me that I need to look into that.
And someone that can access papers better than I can figure out if anyone thinks the R isomer causes empathy in people.
gotta go
A. Scatterday, you and I are reading these papers exactly opposite. I will admit that when I have looked over the paper I posted, I in no way was fully engaged, sober, or reading slowly. But my take was that the R isomer when introduced alone caused desensensitivity to either S or racemic product down the road. I will absolutely admit that its likely I reversed it.
However, I think we agree that the S-isomer is more "up" because the rats ass temperature increases and they sniff ass more and move around,l while the R rats are more chill. I don't think that says too much about what WE feel, but I do know I'd rather be chill than run around smelling ass and feeling hot.
I also don't expect the wash to produce an isolate of one isomer of the other. Id bet the tiny differences we might feel (and I bet it is more subtle than that) would be due to the ratios in the pills. But nobody has showed me a paper yet that really nailed how the R isomer is responsible for love that lasts for decades. I'm really, I still have that orange juice lid and Charlie's sweater.
There IS a sight I think I can access on the DW called DW avengers or something. one of the geezers on the sight I joined told the other guy who is a doctor (harvesting organs) that he should join up with that group because they get heavy into the pharmacology of the drugs in addition to the testing.
I have a feeling, based on the personalities I've seen so far, that I will be underwhelmed. BUT YOU NEVER KNOW.
I'm going to ask my police officer friend if I need to worry about the fact that I'm going so deep into all the web stuff in addition to the discussions we have here. It looks super bad on paper. Not many people fit the geek/thrill-seeking type often. So remind me that I need to look into that.
And someone that can access papers better than I can figure out if anyone thinks the R isomer causes empathy in people.
gotta go
SympatheticMD
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2018
- Messages
- 55
Oh shit - you asked me about the dallas group and something else.
So yes, 1984-2000 I had varying sources. The earlier sources were likely supplied by the Dallas crew, but eventually that shifted over to production in Mexico. The best stuff I ever had was in 1989 in San Diego, and I'd bet that came from San Francisco. Who knows where the LA stuff came from. That was 1994-1999 or so. Some of it was more up - actually all of it was. WE went out. We danced at gay bars. But we rubbed on each other too. And there was still a strong period where it hit you at first, but it was never as intense as earlier than 1994.
Hmmm... Then I didn't really do it until I came back to Texas. I have no idea where it comes from All of a sudden they called it molly and carried it in these little cocaine baggies and acted like I needed to be super cautious not to take to much. IT was bitter as hell - a lot of people gagged and puked - but I could lick that stuff all over my teeth and get right back at it. There was dancing and drinking, and I frequently didn't care where my crew was. And all of the crushes were gone, gone, gone. Not even with my damn boyfriend. The focus switched to LED hula hoops and glow sticks.
Anyway, now I really do need to leave.
So yes, 1984-2000 I had varying sources. The earlier sources were likely supplied by the Dallas crew, but eventually that shifted over to production in Mexico. The best stuff I ever had was in 1989 in San Diego, and I'd bet that came from San Francisco. Who knows where the LA stuff came from. That was 1994-1999 or so. Some of it was more up - actually all of it was. WE went out. We danced at gay bars. But we rubbed on each other too. And there was still a strong period where it hit you at first, but it was never as intense as earlier than 1994.
Hmmm... Then I didn't really do it until I came back to Texas. I have no idea where it comes from All of a sudden they called it molly and carried it in these little cocaine baggies and acted like I needed to be super cautious not to take to much. IT was bitter as hell - a lot of people gagged and puked - but I could lick that stuff all over my teeth and get right back at it. There was dancing and drinking, and I frequently didn't care where my crew was. And all of the crushes were gone, gone, gone. Not even with my damn boyfriend. The focus switched to LED hula hoops and glow sticks.
Anyway, now I really do need to leave.
scatterday
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2010
- Messages
- 398
Likewise and thanking you for the compliments,
I suspect we're very much so alike too and would have a good time meeting eachother with some interesting conversation.
Will keep gc/ms results posted and try to identify if they have the device which can identify isomer ratios.
I'll most probably get around to an erowid report and wash with some amphetamine experimentation carefully. Of course all product will be strictly reagent tested and sent off for gc/ms analysis and if we get lucky we can find the device to isolate isomer ratios.
Results for the xanax should be here sometime this week. My poor wallet is going to hurt after this but who cares because it's achieving answers and providing harm reduction with a comprehensive user experience on erowid.
Need that piracetam to potentate the roll and 5-htp to pre and post load not too close to the dose though otherwise it'll kill the roll.
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Sorry, I've been away on vacation and missed a large portion of this discussion. Super excited to hear you sent washed and unwashed samples in for testing. I'm curious if you let the lab know your intentions and that one was washed and the other not? This thread has really become something great. The chemistry knowledge some of you guys have is quite impressive. I'm blown away. I truly believe something groundbreaking is about to happen here. I'm just in awe to be a spectator
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