What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[ThreePointCircle]

Yes, reagents would not differentiate between them, but there might be a difference in their opacity to UV light because similar di-aryl compounds are known to be strong UV absorbers (some are even used in sunscreens).

Oh right. The problem with the UV opacity is that I guess it also depends on the concentration. Any other reliable way to differentiate between these and mdma on a tlc plate?

 

[ThreePointCircle]

The silica dissolving story is from flash column chromatography and it is not important to TLC. The methanol doesn't actually dissolved the silica but the large amounts of heat generated when methanol is absorbed into the silica column with nowhere for the heat to go causes spherical silica to breakdown and shed small particles that end up in the product.

Oh right, makes sense. Seems like quite a few people are confusing the two situations in online posts. I'll try and test out the methanol/ammonia system used in the paper referenced by @user666 at some point.

 

[user666]

The problem with the UV opacity is that I guess it also depends on the concentration.

Definitely. Especially in solution

Any other reliable way to differentiate between these and mdma on a tlc plate?

I only have a long shot. Maybe just maybe these bi-aryl compounds fluoresce on their own under UV light. If that is the case, then that fluorescence might be noticeable on pure silica without a fluorescent agent added.
Other than that - different solvent systems as usual. Me thinks the bulkiness of these bi-aryl compounds would be accentuated by small solvent molecules such as methanol, ethanol, acetonitrile.

 

[indigoaura]

Holy crap, yep for some reason I didn't even read the abstract - amazing paper. Have read the abstract now and will continue with the rest of the paper.

I have read the paper half a dozen times, and every time I re-read it, I catch some little detail I did not notice before. It is a pretty dense paper. Although they are discussing contaminants that were common from older synthesis methods, I still think the theory could be the crux of what we are observing. I have forwarded all these articles to Drugs Data as well, and they are thinking on similar lines. IF there is a problem with the product, the contaminant probably behaves very similarly to MDMA, reagent tests as MDMA etc.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

I only have a long shot. Maybe just maybe these bi-aryl compounds fluoresce on their own under UV light. If that is the case, then that fluorescence might be noticeable on pure silica without a fluorescent agent added.
Other than that - different solvent systems as usual. Me thinks the bulkiness of these bi-aryl compounds would be accentuated by small solvent molecules such as methanol, ethanol, acetonitrile.

The plates I have, and the ones on order, have the fluorescent agent so I can't test that at the moment unfortunately. Hopefully I can get more obvious separation with the bigger plates I have on order, and playing with the systems. Questions is, what to do after that?

 

[ThreePointCircle]

I have read the paper half a dozen times, and every time I re-read it, I catch some little detail I did not notice before. It is a pretty dense paper. Although they are discussing contaminants that were common from older synthesis methods, I still think the theory could be the crux of what we are observing. I have forwarded all these articles to Drugs Data as well, and they are thinking on similar lines. IF there is a problem with the product, the contaminant probably behaves very similarly to MDMA, reagent tests as MDMA etc.

I'm wondering where to go with my TLC experiments. After I receive the bigger plates, I'll try and get better separation. But then what? Is it worth talking to drugs data and/or wedinos and seeing if they can analyse TLC scrapings? Is there any value in that? My thought is at least we'd know there's two different compounds so they know that if their testing says they are both mdma then something is wrong.

 

[user666]

I've just had a quick look. Most of it I can't do because of the equipment involved.

What about activating the silica gel by heating it at 80ºC for 30min. ?

Is it worth talking to drugs data and/or wedinos and seeing if they can analyse TLC scrapings? Is there any value in that?

Yes, if they can provide the raw spectrum for independent analysis.
If some of these spots do not contain MDMA then the number of labs that you can send them to for analysis, increases a lot.

Another question: Is the minor spot visible in the fluorescent TLC plate under UV light ...or only in visible light when the plate is stained with the reagent ?

 

[indigoaura]

I'm wondering where to go with my TLC experiments. After I receive the bigger plates, I'll try and get better separation. But then what? Is it worth talking to drugs data and/or wedinos and seeing if they can analyse TLC scrapings? Is there any value in that? My thought is at least we'd know there's two different compounds so they know that if their testing says they are both mdma then something is wrong.

I asked Drugs Data about the TLC plates, but I have not heard back yet. They were previously very interested in the contaminant that Vash's friend had separated with a column, so I assume they would feel the same way about a contaminant separated with TLC, but he has not replied yet.

Reach out to Wedinos and see if they will test the TLC plates. Wedinos will not accept samples from the USA, so I am cut off from them. I think it would be great if you opened a line of conversation with them.

I think separating and testing any contaminants is probably the most important development that could occur. If we can just get a name for what we are dealing with, then we can branch off and do research on that compound and whether it would have a dulling effect if mixed with MDMA.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

What about activating the silica gel by heating it at 80ºC for 30min. ?

That's ok, I've done that before. It didn't make any difference as far as I could tell but I'll add to the list of things to try again.

Yes, if they can provide the raw spectrum for independent analysis.
If some of these spots do not contain MDMA then the number of labs that you can send them to for analysis, increases a lot.

Only the odd yellow spot doesn't react so I definitely know it doesn't contain mdma.

Another question: Is the minor spot visible in the fluorescent TLC plate under UV light ...or only in visible light when the plate is stained with the reagent ?

I didn't spot it under uv when I first did a big spot tlc, but for the images I uploaded recently (with the reagent tests), I think I was doing a better job. So I'll do it again and take a photo of the uv exposure. I've also got some iodine on order.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

I asked Drugs Data about the TLC plates, but I have not heard back yet. They were previously very interested in the contaminant that Vash's friend had separated with a column, so I assume they would feel the same way about a contaminant separated with TLC, but he has not replied yet.

Reach out to Wedinos and see if they will test the TLC plates. Wedinos will not accept samples from the USA, so I am cut off from them. I think it would be great if you opened a line of conversation with them.

I think separating and testing any contaminants is probably the most important development that could occur. If we can just get a name for what we are dealing with, then we can branch off and do research on that compound and whether it would have a dulling effect if mixed with MDMA.

Ok, sounds good. Fingers crossed that Drugs Data will be interested. I'll try and strike up a dialogue with Wedinos.

As I got the stuff and did a trial run, I'm think of running a column if I can get a clearer separation on TLC. Not sure how much sample I would be if I then plan to recrystallise both the big and small components.

 

[Negi]

I was looking at the most recently published MDMA literature on Google Scholar and found a paper that might be of interest to people in this thread.

Sci-Hub | | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332

This is a Korean paper, where they throw every analysis method they have at some MDMA tablets they found. I found this one notable as if you look at the images of the pills (go to the end of the paper) they are clearly bi-layer uber eats pills, which are Q-Dance. The other interesting thing:

The structures of the two substances were elucidated by a combination of liquid chromatography quadrupole time-of-flight mass spectrometry, nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, and comparison with reported or newly generated spectral data of the suggested structures. One of the psychoactive substances proved to be MDMA (commonly known as “Ecstasy”), and the other compound was an M-ALPHA analog bearing a hydroxyl group and an N-methylcarboxamide group. The new M-ALPHA analog was determined as 3-(benzo[d][1,3]dioxol-5-yl)-2-hydroxy-N,2-dimethyl-3-(methylamino)propanamide and named as M-ALPHA-HMCA, wherein HMCA denotes hydroxymethylcarboxamide. Although psychoactivity of this compound has not been assessed, M-ALPHA-HMCA should be considered a potential new psychoactive substanceand/or a by-product of MDMA.

From later in the paper:

Although we cannot exclude the possibility that M-ALPHA-HMCA was intentionally mixed with MDMA, it is highly likely that M-ALPHA-HMCA was generated as a by-product during the course of the synthesis of MDMA from its impure precursor 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (PMK, MDP2P). As shown in Fig. 3, M-ALPHA-HMCA can be produced from PMK glycidates, which are frequently used as precursors of PMK[24], by simultaneous amidation and epoxide ring-opening with N-methylamine.

Edit: Pretty funny, google searching it one of the only results is a bluelight thread: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/m-alpha-hmca.888123/

 

[indigoaura]

Wow, @Negi. That research seems very promising. I am going to read it and also forward to Drugs Data.

I also noticed something odd. I was checking the Drugs Data results to see if my samples were posted yet, and was clicking on some of the other submitted samples.

Check out how different the reagent results are for these two "MDMA" samples:

https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=8510 (notes say that Mecke was purple/brown)
https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=8509 (notes say that Mecke was blue)

Also, notice on sample one how the user expected it to be laced with fentanyl. Hmmm. Maybe they had a rather "meh" experience.

 

[Negi]

Also, notice on sample one how the user expected it to be laced with fentanyl. Hmmm. Maybe they had a rather "meh" experience.

I would put anything to that. People have been claiming that pills are "heroin-based" or cut with with opioids/heroin since before the millennium. Generally it just means that they had a more sedentary experience (which can be a result of dosage).

 

[indigoaura]

But why are the Mecke results so different? Looking through their published reports, it seems that Mecke is is either purple/brown or blue depending on the sample.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

But why are the Mecke results so different? Looking through their published reports, it seems that Mecke is is either purple/brown or blue depending on the sample.

fent laced mdma rocks here have shown up this year and killed once person at the start of the year and nearly everybody else in the house who took it aswell hopstial manged to save them.

 

[RyybsNarcs]

I was looking at the most recently published MDMA literature on Google Scholar and found a paper that might be of interest to people in this thread.

Sci-Hub | | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332

This is a Korean paper, where they throw every analysis method they have at some MDMA tablets they found. I found this one notable as if you look at the images of the pills (go to the end of the paper) they are clearly bi-layer uber eats pills, which are Q-Dance. The other interesting thing:

From later in the paper:


Edit: Pretty funny, google searching it one of the only results is a bluelight thread: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/m-alpha-hmca.888123/

Uber Eats are actually not a Q-Dance pill, even though they are bi-layer.

 

[user666]

From later in the paper:

One of the psychoactive substances proved to be MDMA (commonly known as “Ecstasy”), and the other compound was an M-ALPHA analog bearing a hydroxyl group and an N-methylcarboxamide group. The new M-ALPHA analog was determined as 3-(benzo[d][1,3]dioxol-5-yl)-2-hydroxy-N,2-dimethyl-3-(methylamino)propanamide and named as M-ALPHA-HMCA, wherein HMCA denotes hydroxymethylcarboxamide. Although psychoactivity of this compound has not been assessed, M-ALPHA-HMCA should be considered a potential new psychoactive substanceand/or a by-product of MDMA. Although we cannot exclude the possibility that M-ALPHA-HMCA was intentionally mixed with MDMA, it is highly likely that M-ALPHA-HMCA was generated as a by-product during the course of the synthesis of MDMA from its impure precursor 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (PMK, MDP2P).

Interesting. Note, the M-ALPHA was mentioned in this tread before. See this post.
According to this, M-Alpha is an isobary of MDMA and belongs to the 1-phenyl-propyl-1-amines class of compounds.

The paper discusses M-ALPHA with a hydroxymethylcarboxamide attached, which might be selectively detected by the tosyl chloride according to my recent post and this post.

According to @vash445 , a very similar compound is routinely used to cut Methamphetamine, which results in what he calles "sleepy Meth".
The Benzodioxole version of this "sleepy" cutting agent, is the N-(1,3-Benzodioxol-5-ylmethyl)propan-2-amine.

This @vash445 character had a lot of interesting things to say but he was very fragile emotionally and fell apart at the first attempt of due diligence by initiated by @G_Chem.

 

[draculic acid69]

Interesting. Note, the M-ALPHA was mentioned in this tread before. See this post.
According to this, M-Alpha is an isobary of MDMA and belongs to the 1-phenyl-propyl-1-amines class of compounds.

The paper discusses M-ALPHA with a hydroxymethylcarboxamide attached, which might be selectively detected by the tosyl chloride according to my recent post and this post.

According to @vash445 , a very similar compound is used to cut Methamphetamine, which results in what he calles "sleepy Meth".
The Benzodioxole version of this "sleepy" cutting agent, is the N-(1,3-Benzodioxol-5-ylmethyl)propan-2-amine.

This @vash445 character had a lot of interesting things to say but he was very fragile emotionally and fell apart at the first attempt of due diligence by initiated by @G_Chem.

Isopropyl benzylamine makes meth sleepy.is that what you are talking about? The ingredients for isopropyl3,4mdbenzylamine are available commercially so it's possible that it's being used as a cutting agent and causing the meh effect

 

[user666]

Isopropyl benzylamine makes meth sleepy.is that what you are talking about?

Actually, it was another member that talked about it in this post. He also mentioned that this compound "seem to be missed in lab results."
He wrote that it apparently makes people get "brain zaps" and makes them feel sleepy.
Apparently, there is also a benzodioxole version of it (CAS 68291-92-9).

OTOH: What is a "bleach test" which he talks about in that post?

 

[draculic acid69]

Do you mean this ?
View attachment 14908

If "yes" then this is a legal research chemical CAS 68291-92-9 and it can be easily found in Canada and China for $50 / 100mg and since it is an isobary of MDMA, it can mimic MDMA in a Mass Spectrometer.

I wonder if it is "sleepy", too.

It would be a good chemical to test the accuracy of a Testing Center with

$50 a point is more expensive than the drug.$50 will get u a kilo of mdbenzylamine from china