What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[AutoTripper]

MDMA magic should induce a strong feeling of level 3 unity between you the enviroment and people around you with the music.

And essentially, this unity builds and comes from within. So solid true MDMA can make you within yourself, with yourself, so that you can recreate your whole universe effectively.

This profound inner peace, harmony and total self acceptance/love is surely missing with the Mehdma, however appatently stimulating, glitzy, exciting, pleasant and enjoyable the other effects are subjectively and outwardly.

 

[AutoTripper]

Spent some time browsing around some of the new DW sites tonight. Wanted to check and see if I could find any pressed pills with doses actually in line with recommended MDMA doses. After browsing extensively, I only saw one listing that included pills with 120 mg (and that was out of my area). Everything else I saw was over 200 mg, with some even advertising 440 mg per pill. Most were in the 300 mg range. And the prices were very low, considering the dose. If vendors/chemists are assuming people will take 1/2 and then 1/2, then the prices should reflect that and basically be for two pills. That is not what I am seeing at all. It all just furthers this concept that they are expecting you to take the 440 mg pill and re-dose afterwards, as they are pricing the pills to allow people to buy multiple pills for one night.

It is just not right, and does not line up with published dose recommendations for MDMA at all. Nobody needs to take 440 mg of MDMA at once.

I think a part of it is also competition. They can all obviously afford to put more amd more MDMA in the pill, like supermarkets they are spurring each other on, and all still making a killing.

Checking in on ecstasydata last month or so, I swear it appeared the mean average of the higher dosed MDMA pills had gone up.

LOADS of crackers anyway haha, or so you would think.

But then for some time now I have also seen quite a few reports of considerably lower dose pills much more in line with what you are talking about.

I how to say as well that I think the ratio of MDMA to fillers is fairly consistent and hovering around the 50% Mark give or take, for the most part.

And I doubt the bigger pill producers (not bigger pills, bigger operations) really care too much about the logic of the dosage in the pill and how much of it you are supposed to take to them it is almost just the price of milk and the going rate amongst the other competition.

I'm certainly not suggesting that this is the case with everybody but maybe be they are a little less considerate of this than we have assumed.

 

[Vlad622]

I appologize if this question has been discussed already, I haven't yet made it through the entire thread and I couldn't find it through the searching I did --

Has anyone been daring enough to compare a batch of mehmdma to magicmdma through a different roa? IV or snorting it?

I ask because I feel like an important question is whether plasma concentrations of the ingested MDMA are different between subjectively distinct batches of orally-consumed MDMA. If 100mg of mehmdma resulted in lower plasma concentration than 100mg magicmdma, then the question becomes less about differences in the mdma itself and more about the difference in bioavailibility between batches. If, on the other hand, plasma concentrations were identical, then we're stuck with the more difficult question of how mdma's mechanism of action has been altered in the brain.

I ask about different roas because with IV or snorting, plasma concentration would be more or less removed as a variable. If the experience of mehmdma and magicmdma was much more similar through a different roa, that would suggest that the subjective differences with oral dosing is due to differences in bioavailibility rather than the molecule itself.

 

[indigoaura]

@Vlad622 What about anal administration? Would that be an acceptable ROA? Not willing to do IV, and I am not a fan of snorting things at all, so I don't know if that would be the best bet. I also have no magic MDMA for comparison. But, I have plenty of MehDMA, and I would be willing to change up the ROA in the name of science.

This is a great point, BTW, and I do not recall it being discussed extensively in this thread. All of my MehDMA & MDMA experiences have been oral.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

You can experince the magic of magic mdma even through snorting but it will last shorter than taking orally just kick in fast.

 

[Vlad622]

@Vlad622 What about anal administration? Would that be an acceptable ROA? Not willing to do IV, and I am not a fan of snorting things at all, so I don't know if that would be the best bet. I also have no magic MDMA for comparison. But, I have plenty of MehDMA, and I would be willing to change up the ROA in the name of science.

This is a great point, BTW, and I do not recall it being discussed extensively in this thread. All of my MehDMA & MDMA experiences have been oral.

Should work just as well. And yeah, you don't have to necessarily have magicmdma on hand to compare it to, you could probably get good sense of whether the magic is present based on that experience alone.

One thing that makes me suspect bioavailibility may play a role is that MDMA plasma concentrations don't vary linearly with dose. Basically, as you increase the dose, plasma concentration increases slowly in the low-dose range, then rapidly after a certain dose. As the charts show in the linked study, plasma concentrations increased by about 100 ug/L between a 50mg and a 100mg dose, but then increased by about 250 ug/L between 100mg and 150mg.

There's a certain threshold dose that you must reach before the plasma concentration begins to increase linearly. The authors write "The possibility of a saturation of MDMA metabolism cannot be discarded as the simplest explanation of the observed phenomenon. Alternatively, a more complex explanation could involve an interaction of MDMA metabolites on some of its metabolic pathways."

If something were to prevent a certain percentage of ingested MDMA from entering the blood stream (or just slowed it down enough), it could have a disproportionate effect on the peak plasma concentration, possibly leading to a batch of mehmdma.

I feel like this non-linearity is true in my subjective experience when taking MDMA on a full stomach. Slower absorption of the MDMA would mean that it doesn't saturate the metabolism and leads to significantly lower peak plasma concentration even with the same oral dose. It's not simply a slower onset, but a much less intense experience overall.

It might also explain the mega-dosed pills on the market. Maybe 300mg of mehmdma leads to the same peak plasma concentration as 150mg of magicmdma.

 

[indigoaura]

It might also explain the mega-dosed pills on the market. Maybe 300mg of mehmdma leads to the same peak plasma concentration as 150mg of magicmdma.

But, it does not really explain why the 300 mg of MehDMA still does not create the "magic." If it was just a dosage issue, wouldn't the higher doses solve the problem?

Also, let's say I try the new ROA, dosage wise, what should I try by that route? Last roll I had was around 150 mg oral.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

Stick to your normal dosages. I also wonder if long term rollers don't realize how much tolerance increases over time. Long gone are the days where 100-180 mg would floor me. My tolerance for mdma is very high and will end up with me using on average between 220-300 mg.

 

[Vlad622]

Also, let's say I try the new ROA, dosage wise, what should I try by that route? Last roll I had was around 150 mg oral.

I've never done it myself, so I can't give you any first-hand advice, but I did find this thread on it: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/rectal-admin-of-mdma.569685/

From a quick look around the web, it seems that people say you take about half the dose you would orally . . . different things about dosing. Couldn't really find a consensus on how to compare the dose to oral. Seems like there are plenty of examples of people using 75-100 mg with this roa.

But, it does not really explain why the 300 mg of MehDMA still does not create the "magic." If it was just a dosage issue, wouldn't the higher doses solve the problem?

Yeah, it doesn't. I guess this theory would predict that a high enough dose of mehmdma would produce more or less the same effect as magicmdma. If I remember correctly, most of the experiences with mehmdma in this thread were at the same doses that you would take normal magicmdma, so maybe the "meh" parts of the roll (lack of increased empathy, lack of pupil dilation, etc.) are just due to lower plasma concentration.

 

[Glubrahnum]

...because those things often contain very little or even no MDMA. They're often a mix of research chemicals.

To masquerade as MDMA, these research chemicals would have to mislead spectroscopy. How do you propose, they do that?

As for containing "little or even no MDMA" it is apparent that you've not familiarized yourself with the evidence presented in this thread. For example: this post.

 

[Glubrahnum]

It is just not right, and does not line up with published dose recommendations for MDMA at all. Nobody needs to take 440 mg of MDMA at once.

Indeed 440mg does not line up with published dose recommendations for MDMA at all. This can be disastrous for first-time users...and it is, lately. The fatality statistics reflect it.

Unfortunately, all of it is attributed to competition and marketing - none to pharmacology,

...in the name of science.

It would be more worthwhile to measure the blood Oxytocin levels before and after administration,

 

[Phobos]

@me.and.emma I think birth control pills have the potential to shift the experience. I had a friend whose reactions abruptly changed when she switched birth control pills to Yasmin. She would roll so hard and crash so hard, and then she would get sick afterwards. She had always rolled hard, but the Yasmin just pushed it into a whole different category.

This article has an interesting explanation of hormones and MDMA: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/exkzj4/why-are-young-british-girls-dying-from-mdma

I don't think this is the answer to the MehDMA question, because obviously most of the reports are from males. But, I do think there is an interplay between hormones and the experience.

Most research on MDMA is done on males exclusively due to the periodical hormone level changes in females and the complexity they add to the testing associated with research.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

Indeed 440mg does not line up with published dose recommendations for MDMA at all. This can be disastrous for first-time users...and it is, lately. The fatality statistics reflect it.

Unfortunately, all of it is attributed to competition and marketing - none to pharmacology,


It would be more worthwhile to measure the blood Oxytocin levels before and after administration,

All the deaths i have seen from mdma are people taking over a gram of mdma like a bunch of idiots. I have zero emphaty for anybody who dies from mdma because they popped 3-5 high doses pills at one time they have won themselves the Darwin award. I have done 600 mg and used harm reduction to monitor my body heat and used fans to cool myself while i rolled hard was amazing the comedown was beyond awful and made me want to blow my brains out.

 

[AutoTripper]

All the deaths i have seen from mdma are people taking over a gram of mdma like a bunch of idiots. I have zero emphaty for anybody who dies from mdma because they popped 3-5 high doses pills at one time they have won themselves the Darwin award. I have done 600 mg and used harm reduction to monitor my body heat and used fans to cool myself while i rolled hard was amazing the comedown was beyond awful and made me want to blow my brains out.

I took 500mg up to 600mg high quality MDMA on numerous occasions admittedly when I had a tolerance usually at festivals in combination with many other substances but on every single occasion I took such a dose I really did not experience any difficulties or adverse sensations or effects at any points not while I was on the role which was always perfectly manageable, and not even suffering any bad or noticeable come down either.

I mean 250mg was always very manageable and comfortable all round but certainly not lacking so doubling that dose simply wasn't enough to cause me any problems personally at the time.

I'm not really making a point in relation to what you were saying and your own experience which I'm not questioning or trying to draw any inference or conclusion from in relation to my own just sharing that's all.

Right, back to bed now guys just been entertaining myself briefly after a toilet break.

 

[Glubrahnum]

I took 500mg up to 600mg high quality MDMA on numerous occasions admittedly when I had a tolerance

Guys, you are very resilient individuals.

To anyone reading this (especially 1st-time users):
Please do not do this just because these resilient individuals lived to tell about it. Limit yourself to 1.5mg of pure racemic 3,4-MDMA Hydrochloride per 1 kg of body weight (0.68mg per 1 lbs) if you are male and 1.3mg per 1kg if you are female (0.59mg per 1 lbs) and read about interactons with any other drugs you are on (including prescription drugs).

You might not be as resilient as they are...

 

[AutoTripper]

Guys, you are very resilient individuals.

To anyone reading this (especially 1st-time users):
Please do not do this just because these resilient individuals lived to tell about it. Limit yourself to 1.5mg of pure 3,4-MDMA Hydrochloride per 1 kg of body weight (0.68mg per 1 lbs) if you are male and 1.3mg per 1kg if you are female (0.59mg per 1 lbs) and read about interactons with any other drugs you are on (including prescription drugs).

Yes very right mate, and I am sorry to everybody who sees and may be affected by or certainly misled by my comments I must be more consciously mindful to make certain this doesn't happen.

Whenever I recount these past experiences, I am in no way advocating this behaviour and drug consumption I'm certainly not boasting there's no pride in it and I'm not even making any point saying "I took this and it didn't do that or...I was fine...etc"

That really genuinely isn't where I'm coming from and the impression I'm trying to put across.

I have been giving advice on MDMA in various places and I have been very careful and cautious, in line with current harm reduction advice and recommendations.

And I am very aware that doses much lower even then 0.5 g can be potentially fatal for some people in some situations.

I do believe there is a genuine phenomenon whereby why people can take huge amounts of otherwise potentially dangerous substances at certain times in their lives and handle the experience with consummate ease both physically in a biological sense and mentally and emotionally.

I did experience this personally myself and I was very fortunate I suppose to have such a strong biological aptitude to handle these substances without any significant danger or risk to myself.


But so right to spell this out. 500mg is a huge and unecessary dose for the vast majority of people and could be very dangerous certainly would be unlikely to be enjoyable in any sense, despite the fact that such a dose can be perfectly safely tolerated depending on the person and situation but is certainly never recommended.

Really sorry I have not been making this clearer.


Currently in life if I was to take take any more than 100 milligrams I expect it could well be dangerous for me due to my current condition and extreme sensitivity particularly to stimulants I recently took 100mg of caffeine powder and had such a bad reaction to it my nervous system reacted and I had a full-blown panic attack losing circulation in my hands and feet I couldn't even use my hands they clamped up and seized up making it impossible to lift a cup or put my trainers on on to dash to the A&E which is within sight of my front door.

It was a really frightening experience where I actually felt like I might die at some point but I had some particular issues on that day related to fatigue and malnourishment and high anxiety levels.

But I am especially sensitive to all substances particularly stimulants I have recently been trying kratom powder the past week for the first time and I took just one gram of powder the first time and it was actually way too much for me in a stimulant sense eventually really heavy and rough on my body at that dose which is barely threshold for most people.

My caffeine experience certainly made me rethink my potential MDMA usage for which I would need to be in a significantly stronger condition all round to even consider.


So NO WAY would I ever be able to take 500mg of MDMA now.

I truly think that would kill me no question, when it was something which did not even pose a risk to me back then when I was remarkably strong and fairly tolerant.

 

[Vlad622]

But, I have plenty of MehDMA, and I would be willing to change up the ROA in the name of science.

Another roa that is worth considering is taking the MDMA liposomally. I posted a thread on this just a few days ago https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/liposomal-mdma.878878/. Basically you blend up powdered MDMA with some fat so that fat molecules encapsulate the MDMA and protect it from being destroyed in the stomach and small intestines, help it get absorbed into the bloodstream, then release it into the blood. Here's a recipe for making liposomal vitamin C at home. You should be able to substitute MDMA for the ascorbic acid: https://www.researchgate.net/post/Protocols_for_liposomal_vitamin_formulations

My last post in that thread, I was thinking that liposomal MDMA may be absorbed more slowly, but reading the studies on liposomal vitamin C, that doesn't seem to be the case.

If, for some reason, the mehmdma has lower bioavailibility than magicmdma, then maybe taking it in liposomal form is the solution. I'd also be curious as to whether taking calcium bicarbonate aka Tums before the mehmdma has any affect.

 

[epic11]

Oddly enough, the 2 connects that gave me the best feelings, are the only 2 i know for certain have been arrested. Little conspiracy? Who knows, but thats coincidental lol

 

[indigoaura]

It would be more worthwhile to measure the blood Oxytocin levels before and after administration,

I have been looking into that @Glubrahnum

When I go to websites to order lab tests, I do not see any blood test for oxytocin that is readily available to purchase.

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I would not be opposed to buying two tests, having one done before, and having the next one done after (as you recommend). But, I need some way to order the test. Suggestions?

 

[Glubrahnum]

When I go to websites to order lab tests, I do not see any blood test for oxytocin that is readily available to purchase.

In my area all the major medical labs that perform blood tests for hospitals and small clinics do this test for around $40. Yes, it involves going to their test center and having your blood drawn by a nurse and prevented from coagulating by citrate. Alternatively, small clinics only draw blood, preserve it and send it out to the lab the same day by courier. I do not know of any way of doing a quantitative test at home.