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What is the point of studying Western Philosphy?

toa$t: I tend to think of Ethics as one of those practical schools that were carved out of philosphy's corpse, and not philosophy itself.

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General note:

Btw it tends to get tiresome quoting myself over and over again to explain trivial misunderstanding that could have been avoided if people had approached my posts with an attempt to understand rather than an attempt to denounce. Kudos to Bel and Burn for their understanding :)
 
Aristotle is pre-"Enlightenment". Reread my posts :).

EDIT: Ok, I'll try to explain a bit:

At the time of Aristotle, philosphy was not yet divorced from mysticism, and ethical enquiry was inextricably tied up with the search for Truth. He may not have made any conclusive discoveries, but at least he was on the right path.

IMO, of course.
 
h.a. post modernism, social constuctivism, post-constructualism all seem to have run their course. They've institutionalized themselves and will suck off the Mother Tit until they fade into obscurity. But, to elevate the death of post-modernism to the death of western philosophy is ridiculous.

Any philosophy that does not engage the interior of human reality and negates the role of free will is partial and will be supplanted. This is not to say that post-modern thought was without value, but as a student that tinkers in the social sciences, it’s ridiculous how dogmatic it all has become.


The perennial philosophy [the core of western philosophy(Nested hierarchies, within hierarchies, ascending and descending from God to God as God)] is just that, perennial. Why that is so? because they are approaching the nature of mind and what and how we are capable of perceiving.

Random Question: Could a strict Social Constructivist smoke DMT and remain a strict Social Constructivist? I wish I could collect some data points on this ;)
 
2. I am done with university, so no I'm not "like other undergrad students".

I apologise for this patronising comment. I made it because the tone of your posts reminds me of students who have had similar problems with philosophy and who usually haven't engaged with the implications of the thinkers they're studying. I wasn't just dismissing your post as 'undergraduate bullshit' which is probably what it sounded like. But I hold to my assertion that your dismissal of institutionalised philosophy as a circle jerk is arrogant in itself.

4. I never implied that postmodernism was the point at which philosophy parted with its main objective. I actually mentioned several times that I think it was during the so-called "enlightenment" that this has happened. What I do think is that post-modernism marks the death of philosophy as such, and its corpse has been carved out into many "theory" disciplines as you have so generously shown. And so, what is the point of studying philosophy, again?

Well I mean what you're showing here is that at some level, all disciplinary boundaries are in a sense arbitrary. Which is fine. But I mean, you're also saying you have a beef with everything since the Enlightenment. So I took your object of cricisism to be, well, everything since the Enlightenment (and specifically the po-mo's, since you mention Derrida specifically.

5. I realize why Derrida is so difficult to read. What I'd like to know is what is it's point. You say it is not intellectual masturbation but a product of it's time. What I am saying is that, like other products of it's time, ALL are academic masturbation (or more precisely, circle-jerks). It is an exchange of whimsical little self-aggrandizing expositions that try to out-self-aggrandize the other's, limited to a few select academics of the time. You have not given me a reason why it is good to read, yet.

Actually, Derrida and the other po-mo's go a long way to undermining the most problematic elements of Enlightenment rationalism. Derrida argued that all knowledge is premised on tiered binaries which disguise the fact that as a product of social relations, texts can be deconstructed and demystified to show that they in fact reflect the conditions of their production. So what Derrida and co show is the contingency of all knowledge. It's against the arragance of positivist assumptions about the objectivity of knowledge so long as the scientific method is applied. So there is a point to reading Derrida. But there is also a point to reading Plato (since Derrida is in a very fundamental sense a conversation with/against Plato).

6. Need for opaque and confusing language is a telling sign that the system you're working with is simply not suited for what you're doing. Why is it that a Sufi poet can, in a single verse, completely obliterate Hiedigger's entire corpus of works?

Philosophy's main (and indeed, ONLY) tool is language. If you cannot use language properly to get your message across (which is what "great" philosophers like Kant and Sartre seem to be suffering from), does that not make you bad at your craft?

I don't see how being a bad writer makes your ideas bad. I don't see how being a very good writer makes your ideas any better. There are heaps of terrible writers who are very influential for very good reasons (Judith Butler springs to mind here). There are also writers who are difficult to read for very good reasons. Heidegger is one of these. Heidegger constructed a original ontology of being. The reasons he used words in ideosyncratic ways is because he was describing things that in a very real sense, nobody had ever described before.

It seems to me that, today, the academic study of philosophy is actually all about trying to out-decipher the texts of past with your fellow scholars.

That said, I do agree with you that the offshoots of philosophy, (ex. Social Theory) have had their importance. But I had agreed with this since my first post, i do not see why you seem to think you need to refute it.

Yeah there are competing interpretations of important texts. This is healthy and all to the good and reflects a positive, critical disciplinary environment which leads to new thought. So I don't see what is wrong about arguing about what something means.

Also, I think your criticism is a little incoherent. You are okay with social theory, but not with 'the academic study of philosophy' which is what social theory is. I mean, social theory is just philosophy with society, knowledge and ethics as its object. So I'm still not clear on what the problem is.

Think about this: In the human sciences, once you reach a certain level of theoretical abstraction, everybody is using the same theorists. Marx, Weber, Durkheim, Derrida, Foucault, Deleuze, Heidegger, Butler, whoever, all of these are being used by academics in politics, sociology, anthropology, history, geography, literature, etc etc. So if you want to know the point of philosophy, just look at the way those disciplines have changed since their inception. Every philosopher has added their own unique element to the narrative of Occidental knowledge. For example, Foucault (a social theorist whom you certainly know) was influenced by Heidegger, Nietzche, and some important philosophers of science (most importantly Canguilhem [sp?]). So without Heidegger, no Foucault. Without Merleu Ponty, no Heidegger. And so it goes. (incidentally, without Enlightenment empiricism, no science, so let's not use the benefit of hindsight to get too down on those guys.)

The philosophical narrative is reflected both in institutionalised philosophy, and the disciplines which draw upon theories of knowledge to inform their practice. Critical engagement within academic institutions is crucial to the movement of this narrative and we are better off for it. So uh don't be so hasty in thinking the whole thing is bullshit and pointless.
 
^ Thanks a lot for the less arrogant-sounding and more understandable post :).

I will have to stop here for a few and sleep on what you have said, now that I understand your points better. I will try to compose a post which addresses what you see as inconsistencies.
 
Random Question: Could a strict Social Constructivist smoke DMT and remain a strict Social Constructivist? I wish I could collect some data points on this ;)

Sounds like a great research project!

WAS philosophy's ultimate goal the discovery of truth? (I'm seriously asking, not being rhetorical.) I just ask this because I always thought that the nature of 'truth' is one of the core sources of discussion and debate amongst philosophers.

I always just conceived of philosophy as thought exercises, with the goal of each exercise being the thinker's mind becoming more at ease conceiving of the phenomenal world a certain way. But you cannot remove the 'coach', if you will, who teaches and leads the thought exercises, from the equation. If someone is training you to think about and verbalize the world in just a certain way, he has some motive for wanting to do this, even if it's only to reduce human alienation by knowing that there's at least one other person who thinks like him.

I've never studied Western philosophy either, Jam. But if I did, I'd do it for the sake of understanding why Westerners, and those who seek to Westernize themselves or take their cues from the West, do what they do. Any people at any given time will settle on a philosophy, a way of linguistically reconstructing the world, that makes it easier for them to exert their collective influence on the world. Philosophy may be the realm of the elite. But it trickles down, believe you me. Yesterday's stuffy academic philosophy becomes today's public opinion, becomes tomorrow's 'age old wisdom'.
 
This idea of 'the coach' is silly. What is the source of his wisdom? Where does knowledge and wisdom come from? Any person and their conceptions are just but one source amongst a near infinite multitude of of sources of philosophical wisdom.

'The coach' only works if you're willing to recognize it as the entirety of Form.


I think you're right on about the emergence of future thought through philosophy. I think that might be philosophy's most important function.
 
First, Great topic! :)

I think that to go forward, we need to put on the table what philosophy is and what it is supposed to do. My take:

What it is: investigation focused on analyzing and synthesizing the products of prior investigation. Put more loosely and simply, philosophy is thinking about thinking, or maybe something like scrutinizing what appears as given. I don't see how anyone could escape philosophy.

What it tries to do: I believe these aims are multiple. Some want to know what the fundamental 'stuff', dynamics, relationships, etc. of the world are. Some want to know how it is that we know what we believe. Some want to know what our place is in the universe is. Some want to know what happens when we die. Some want to know what the most ethical way to live is....etc., etc.

Good. :) Now in what way has philosophy become pointless? Well, I'll concede that it has become inconsequential as it has been trapped in academia. I will also concede that philosophy has become masturbatory when it fails to build on investigations relevant to 'real life'. One may go only so far analyzing and re-analyzing the situation of sitting in a room and analyzing things. A relevant and effective philosophy would need be embedded organically in the community.

Implications of the 'post-modernist turn': Okay...so it looks like we've abandoned the projects of completely certain truth and apprehension of the world in itself. We may still do more than wank. Namely, we may investigate what type of reality and what types of selves emerge when encountering the world. There also persists some process of 'uncovering' the realm of the once concealed, albeit with more complications. As I'm sure that you're aware, this can even have political implications. Think of Foucault's work applied to identity-politics (I'm sure that you're familiar).

Why philosophy has a point to me: it's interesting and...amusing to me. That's all I require. ;) It's almost like my personality was made for it (apart from my abilities or lack thereof). My pathological inclinations lead me not to care (or even think through) practical applications. It would be more ethical for me to do something that helps the world, but one's own personality is a hell of a thing to struggle against. :)

[QUOTE='shyd]Btw it tends to get tiresome quoting myself over and over again to explain trivial misunderstanding that could have been avoided if people had approached my posts with an attempt to understand rather than an attempt to denounce. [/QUOTE]

O, u c0ulD b m0ar charitable to UR int3rl0cut0rZ than th15!!LOL... ;)

Perhaps it's more that others don't share what are obvious assumptions to you, hence misunderstanding and people talking past one another, but projecting the appearance of a dismissive attack.

Peace out, ballers,
ebola
 
Philosophy seems to also to be like academic masturbation - but only in the context of academia. I'm a little 'iffy' about a lot of arts courses, even ones im taking, because im not sure if someone should be paid to critique literature, art, etc., when it has already been discussed endlessly, there's no objective truth, and it's fucking boring. But what's the alternative? a USSR-style seriousness where all "contemplation" and question is considered time-wasting?

I would say 'philosophy' - the organized codes of how to see the world - is only useful as a companion to art and science. if you're not exploring your world with other 'metaphysical' tools, there is no connection between your mental and physical wanderings. philosophy is like the hobby of researchers and poets and explorers. i dont see it as a discipline in itself, and even the names kant, derrida, sartre, etc., fucking annoy me. they remind me of preppy college kids trying to be inner-explorers with the stickiest, most plastic-y super-expensive children's toys, that are actually just little chewing-gum replicas of old greek limbless busts. (????) (but is'nt all judgement and hatred completely pointless??)
 
The point is to enter into a rich dialectic with other brilliant thinkers and to construct models and explanation of phenomena found within our reality so as to advance the knowledge we can all have access to.

IE, expanding our understanding of very complex concepts and how they relate to physical reality.

we do this by appealing to formal conceptual frameworks and concepts/statements taken together in meaningful ways in order to derive other true statements

The point is also to have a great job (at least for me). Being a philosopher within one's society entails teaching university students and working on one's own private research (basically whatever one has been thinking about within the historical/contemporary framework one has access to through the institutions one belongs to), publishing in academic journals. Its all quite filled with moments of personal elation and personal satisfaction from doing a 'good day's work'. It feels good to be making an intellectual advance through your work for you and your society.

It is my view that ultimately western philosophy supports therapeutic goals. We (philosophers) are here to attempt to make our society a better place, for instance, by analyzing theories proposed by other (scientific) disciplines and suggesting revisions that make more conceptual coherence when taken together with other complex conceptual commitments. I hope in these revisionary projects the possibiliity for 'downstream' indirect harm minimization to people affected by the phenomena (for instance, a philosopher working on revising a neurobiological theory of addiction has the possibility to benefit addicts if the revised theory is used later in a therapeutic context).
 
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bump...somebody go gaga over my awesome explanation of the purpose of a western philosopher.

I nailed that shit and the thread just died =D
 
lol, but your last post was only the day before the day before your last post? philosophers are only good for thinkin... and firing from giant slingshots in War...
 
whats the purpose of thinking if it does not have an effect on one's society?

Philosophers do many things, but one of the most important (imo) is their ability (knack) at fixing conceptual problems within theories proposed by other disciplines (tied to the therapeutic sciences)
 
GP said:
bump...somebody go gaga over my awesome explanation of the purpose of a western philosopher.

I nailed that shit and the thread just died

Fine, I'll placate your narcissism. ;)

The point is to enter into a rich dialectic with other brilliant thinkers and to construct models and explanation of phenomena found within our reality so as to advance the knowledge we can all have access to.

IE, expanding our understanding of very complex concepts and how they relate to physical reality.

we do this by appealing to formal conceptual frameworks and concepts/statements taken together in meaningful ways in order to derive other true statements

The problem is that many of such insights often remain in philosophy periodicals or texts, encountered almost solely by university faculty and students attached to philosophy departments. Other investigators, even, usually continue with their traditional concepts (subject to analogous pitfalls within their own disciplines).

The point is also to have a great job (at least for me). Being a philosopher within one's society entails teaching university students and working on one's own private research (basically whatever one has been thinking about within the historical/contemporary framework one has access to through the institutions one belongs to), publishing in academic journals. Its all quite filled with moments of personal elation and personal satisfaction from doing a 'good day's work'. It feels good to be making an intellectual advance through your work for you and your society.

I'm more selfish, here. I like teaching this kinda shit. I also like learning it. If it benefits someone, that would be nice, but it seems that it doesn't. ;) I also might suck as a researcher or even a creator of new ideas in general (not just a consumer), which is troubling.

It is my view that ultimately western philosophy supports therapeutic goals. We (philosophers) are here to attempt to make our society a better place, for instance, by analyzing theories proposed by other (scientific) disciplines and suggesting revisions that make more conceptual coherence when taken together with other complex conceptual commitments. I hope in these revisionary projects the possibiliity for 'downstream' indirect harm minimization to people affected by the phenomena (for instance, a philosopher working on revising a neurobiological theory of addiction has the possibility to benefit addicts if the revised theory is used later in a therapeutic context).

This is how it should work. Too bad it usually fails to do so.

ebola
 
ebola, you seem to think just because concepts remain internalized to philosophical circles, this is necessarily a bad thing. Consider that some of the concepts we are working with (especially the more metaphysically loaded ones) only we can understand because we are A) intelligent and B) have spent enough time working on them. We then go on to use those concepts (which very well may always remain internal to philosophical circles) to generate new conceptions and ideas that may externalize themselves at this point into other academic circles or into scientific circles. Or, they could remain internal yet still and remain as fodder for future generations to propel us onwards to a fuller understanding of the concepts we are using.

So, is it an immediate pay-off? No.

Is it worthless like some people seem to suggest because it doesn't have an immediate pay-off? No.
 
i wish it was like olden times and philosophers still had a say, but it just aint so.... the times they have a-changed, long ago (to a shit-show)
 
i wish it was like olden times and philosophers still had a say, but it just aint so.... the times they have a-changed, long ago (to a shit-show)

no offense, but what do you base your comment on? They sound like prototypical freshman college student angst ridden babble.

Is this just your naive take from outside the academic world? I actually happen to be inside the philosophical academic world within the US, presenting and attending conferences, getting unpublished papers from prominent contemporary philosophers, submitting and beginning to publish my own work. The circle is very much alive. There are very much people that are thinking incredibly hard about philosohpical issues and you know what...coming up with shit that people have NEVER thought of before. Its quite amazing. And universities are willing to pay us about 70,000$ a YEAR to do this with our minds.

Nothing has changed as far as I see it. If anything the funding has shifted hands from private to public sector as people have begun to realize that funding philosophers with their tax money benefits them by educating their children and advancing the field of philosophy (not to mention indirect effects that philosophers have on other fields which can be quite intense given the right comments by the right philosopher at the right time).

The mystical postmodern world you may envision is not here. We are still very much in an industrial stage, we're cranking out ideas and papers as products for our society to consume.
 
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