What is the 4th-Dimension?

[Shucklak]

^^^_high_life_ has a bad habit of stating opinion as unquestionable fact without any evidence to back it up. Saying time doesnt exist without us to percieve its existance is the same thing as saying nothing exists except through our perception of it. Perception is the form which reality takes to an individual. Reality by definition is the state of things as they truly are, not how we imagine them to be. Honestly, if perception and our minds dictated reality, I think reality would be alot different.

 

[_high_life_]

i dont think things would be going on if we didnt percieve it,and if they were happening without us to see it would it really matter if things did happen without us knowing about it?i think things happen so we can put them together.everything is working together,in constant motion,our minds are constantly in motion of thought,putting things together to make a whole.

yea i guess i do have a habit of doing that but i guess its just the way i talk about things,and wait untill someone dissagrees or adds on.so im not really saying thats the way it is since im not god but im saying thats the way it could be or the way i percieve things at the moment.but im probably wrong most of the time.

would there be any dimentions if we didnt exist,i think not.'

maybe our mind isnt the forth dimension,maybe our mind is the first second third and forth and whatever other dimension we can throw in the that has logic based on our own existence and perception.

i dont think anything would be happening without a mind to percieve it though weather it be god,us,or whatever else.

but u would have to be an animal to say there isnt a mind creating all that is.

it all starts with the mind.

 

[HerbieShimmer]

i dont think things would be going on if we didnt percieve it,and if they were happening without us to see it would it really matter if things did happen without us knowing about it?i think things happen so we can put them together.everything is working together,in constant motion,our minds are constantly in motion of thought,putting things together to make a whole.

yea i guess i do have a habit of doing that but i guess its just the way i talk about things,and wait untill someone dissagrees or adds on.so im not really saying thats the way it is since im not god but im saying thats the way it could be or the way i percieve things at the moment.but im probably wrong most of the time.

would there be any dimentions if we didnt exist,i think not.'

maybe our mind isnt the forth dimension,maybe our mind is the first second third and forth and whatever other dimension we can throw in the that has logic based on our own existence and perception.

i dont think anything would be happening without a mind to percieve it though weather it be god,us,or whatever else.

but u would have to be an animal to say there isnt a mind creating all that is.

it all starts with the mind.

Au contraire dude.......in my opinion, it all FINISHES with the mind. Call me Animal McAnimalton if you want, but I don't think anything created all that is, let alone a mind. The mind in general, and specifically, perception, has got to be the ultimate product of the universe. The spark of self-awareness present in humans (and other animals to a lesser extent) is the single most unexplainable phenomenon is our universe in my opinion.

Your statement, nothing would be happening unless a mind perceives it, seems to miss a more obvious point. What would be the point of anything happening, if not to be perceived, or to have an effect on that which can be perceived?

 

[_high_life_]

thats what im saying,"What would be the point of anything happening, if not to be perceived, or to have an effect on that which can be perceived?"

"Au contraire dude.......in my opinion, it all FINISHES with the mind. Call me Animal McAnimalton if you want, but I don't think anything created all that is, let alone a mind. The mind in general, and specifically, perception, has got to be the ultimate product of the universe. The spark of self-awareness present in humans (and other animals to a lesser extent) is the single most unexplainable phenomenon is our universe in my opinion."

then how do u explain how everything fits together like a clock watch?

i mean take a clock watch,sitting there in the middle of nowhere.it didnt just make itself,it couldnt have appeared out of nowhere or a bunch of atoms fitting together to creat it and the function that it is meant for.

the world didnt just apear from atoms having chemical reaction and then creating all that is with time.

someone or something had to have the mind to creat,put things together and give this something a purpose.everything has a purpose onto something else.

i really dissagree that we as humans are a phenomenon i beleive the real phenomenon is who created and why he created us.

please tell me why im wrong or why i might be right,because thats what we do as humans,we put down or add on.i dont beleive this way of thinking came out of nowhwere.

 

[JTNOLA5211]

Your statement, nothing would be happening unless a mind perceives it, seems to miss a more obvious point. What would be the point of anything happening, if not to be perceived, or to have an effect on that which can be perceived?

Well that statement brings to light the old cliche of " If a tree fall in the woods w/o noone to hear it does it make a sound?"

I think that question is reatarded........Of course it makes a sound.......Why would a sound require ears?

OK i have another question......IF our species would cease to exist......would the world or universe still exist? Would time exist?

I think its kinda of arrogant for humans to think the universe revolves around us and is dependent of our existance.

 

[JTNOLA5211]

thats what im saying,"What would be the point of anything happening, if not to be perceived, or to have an effect on that which can be perceived?"

"Au contraire dude.......in my opinion, it all FINISHES with the mind. Call me Animal McAnimalton if you want, but I don't think anything created all that is, let alone a mind. The mind in general, and specifically, perception, has got to be the ultimate product of the universe. The spark of self-awareness present in humans (and other animals to a lesser extent) is the single most unexplainable phenomenon is our universe in my opinion."

then how do u explain how everything fits together like a clock watch?

i mean take a clock watch,sitting there in the middle of nowhere.it didnt just make itself,it couldnt have appeared out of nowhere or a bunch of atoms fitting together to creat it and the function that it is meant for.

the world didnt just apear from atoms having chemical reaction and then creating all that is with time.

someone or something had to have the mind to creat,put things together and give this something a purpose.everything has a purpose onto something else.

i really dissagree that we as humans are a phenomenon i beleive the real phenomenon is who created and why he created us.

please tell me why im wrong or why i might be right,because thats what we do as humans,we put down or add on.i dont beleive this way of thinking came out of nowhwere.

Ur point is based on spirituality and is not argueable either way. I cant prove ur wrong neither can u prove ur right.......

 

[JTNOLA5211]

Have you ever made a decision that affects your own percieved reality and wonder what would have happened had you acted differently? The theory is that the different events that would have occurred actually do occur, but instead of on your own plane of reality on a different plane that exist parallel to this one, i believe it is said that the next adjacent reality lies about a millimeter above or below the one we exist in in actual space time, and that it contains not only this moment that we as humans are percieving as the present, but it encompasses all of the past and future in that same moment, making time as it exists in the fourth dimension drastically different than we as humans percieve it.

Well that woudl mean that there are an infinite # of parallels b/c a diff choice would mean a diff outcome which would result in a new choice to make. Each choice would have to compensated for by making 'x' amount of new choices. Also u would have to incorporate how the choices u make affect others. So then they would have diff outcomes.

You do the math.......The parallel's are infinite

 

[_high_life_]

ok il start from the tree falling in the woods nowbody is gonna hear it.

yes i agree it makes a vibration(since thats all sound really is)but there are no ears to turn this vibration into a sound and perceive it as a sound.

i do think the universe revolves around us.
why? because there would be no point of this thread if we didnt have brains to percieve the universe.there would be no poinht of thinking about the universe.i beleive the universe revolves around us simply because i can do so.if we didnt exist who the hell would be around to argue that it does or it deosnt.if we didnt exist the universe simply wouldnt matter at all.it wouldnt come into my mind that there is a universe.if there was a different species with less brains and self conscience than us would they be pondering on the universe?no they would be thinking about how to stay alive and how to get what they need to do so.we can do all the later and think about what is going on in the greater realms of space and time.we make the universe in our own minds,we put it all together in our own minds.if u had some sort of mental illness u would percieve everything differently and u wouldnt even be aware of anything but whats in front of u or what u want and need.therefore there wouldnt BE a universe in your own reality.

im confusing myself and if i keep going my brains gonna blow so il stop untill next time,when one of u guys gives me something to argue about:D

 

[Shucklak]

Well that woudl mean that there are an infinite # of parallels b/c a diff choice would mean a diff outcome which would result in a new choice to make. Each choice would have to compensated for by making 'x' amount of new choices. Also u would have to incorporate how the choices u make affect others. So then they would have diff outcomes.

You do the math.......The parallel's are infinite

That is what I was saying. That time, existing in the fourth dimension, isnt linear, therefore all these parallels as well as all of the past and potential future exist in one moment, a kind of quintessential "now".

the world didnt just apear from atoms having chemical reaction and then creating all that is with time.

someone or something had to have the mind to creat,put things together and give this something a purpose.everything has a purpose onto something else.

i really dissagree that we as humans are a phenomenon i beleive the real phenomenon is who created and why he created us.

Im not going to try to debate the existance of god. You are trying to make a creationist argument based on the theory of "intelligent design".

What would be the point of anything happening, if not to be perceived, or to have an effect on that which can be perceived?

That statement is dependent upon the assumption that everything has a purpose, which is dependent upon the assumption that there is a god who has a plan for mankind and the universe, which is something that cannot be proven (believe me people have tried). These are assumptions which require faith, and "faith is the antithesis of proof".

Arguing about reality is pointless unless we agree on a definition for "reality". Yes, you are partially right, to the individual reality is made up of our perceptions. If we truly believe something to be true, to us, it IS true. However, for most people to define something as real, you need corroboration. You need other people, in fact a majority of other people to AGREE that it is real. People usually define reality as something that can be percieved by the senses and will be percieved by anyone who is honest about what their senses are telling them. By using this method, people define what we call physical reality. By changing your mind to either accept or deny or change what your senses are telling you, you may be changing things in your own mind, but you arent changing things in anyone else's. That is what I am saying when I say that perception does not dictate reality.

You may have noticed that the idea of reality defined by the senses is a rather narrow view. I think that we are in agreement that this physical world that our bodies live in is not the end all be all of existance. What is actually real is problably far more intangible and vast than we can percieve fully in our current state. I think where our disagreement is is our opinions of what we can and cannot do while existing in the shell of our bodies. I believe that the human organism, the physical, biological entity, is ruled by certain absolute laws. Are we certain what those limitations are? I dont believe so.

However, one thing I am sure of is that no matter how much I believe that I can fly, Im never going to get anywhere by standing there flapping my arms.

 

[JTNOLA5211]

ok il start from the tree falling in the woods nowbody is gonna hear it.

yes i agree it makes a vibration(since thats all sound really is)but there are no ears to turn this vibration into a sound and perceive it as a sound.

You actually make a very good point there. But if vibration = sound . then a tree does make a sound.

Another example from one of the post above:

Back before creatures had ears, was there sound? Of course there was! You may request me to prove this, to which I counter, DISPROVE IT.....

Now, because creatures did not have ears, they could not "hear".....The sound waves were still there though.

Think of it this way, if you go blind, is there still color? Do things still have an appearance? Of course they do, if you could restore your eyes, then you would be able to once again perceive things visually.

i do think the universe revolves around us.
why? because there would be no point of this thread if we didnt have brains to percieve the universe.there would be no poinht of thinking about the universe.i beleive the universe revolves around us simply because i can do so.if we didnt exist who the hell would be around to argue that it does or it deosnt.if we didnt exist the universe simply wouldnt matter at all.it wouldnt come into my mind that there is a universe.if there was a different species with less brains and self conscience than us would they be pondering on the universe?no they would be thinking about how to stay alive and how to get what they need to do so.we can do all the later and think about what is going on in the greater realms of space and time.we make the universe in our own minds,we put it all together in our own minds.if u had some sort of mental illness u would percieve everything differently and u wouldnt even be aware of anything but whats in front of u or what u want and need.therefore there wouldnt BE a universe in your own reality.

im confusing myself and if i keep going my brains gonna blow so il stop untill next time,when one of u guys gives me something to argue about:D

Just because there arent intelligent beings to ponder the universe doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

if u had some sort of mental illness u would percieve everything differently and u wouldnt even be aware of anything but whats in front of u or what u want and need.therefore there wouldnt BE a universe in your own reality.

So if thats the case then a mentally ill person w/ an alternate reality doens live on our planet? They dont live in our universe?

Because they cant perceive our reality means they are somewhere else? Where are they?

 

[Shucklak]

^^^thats how they define insanity.

 

[JTNOLA5211]

^^^thats how they define insanity.

Yea but my point is just b/c someone cant perceive something doenst mean its not there.

 

[Shucklak]

I know but if they do percieve something that isnt there then they are crazy. It doesnt work both ways. Like if you think the government is sending you secret messages through the tv, then you are crazy because that is definately not real. But, if the government IS sending you messages through the tv, and you dont know it, then no one would think you are crazy.

 

[JTNOLA5211]

^^^^^

good point.......It makes u wonder what normal really is.....

 

[NecroTrance]

Perception is nothing more than chemical responses within our brain so essentially everything you perceive is created by you, as in those chemicals which trigger nerves are created in your own body by enzymes and proteins and such.

Substantially, we don't create the structures of that which we perceive, but we are the terminals that decide how to use those structures in order to formulate our own personal perception of the world.

Basically, we make that which we perceive, therefore being crazy isn't merely seeing something that's not there, it's moreso perceiving something that is not within your boundaries of imagination...Insanity sounds kinda like genius now, doesn't it?

 

[JTNOLA5211]

I think there is a thin line b/w insanity and genius

 

[_high_life_]

yep nope yep nope yep nope yep nope yep

actually i think insane and geniuse are the same thing at a certain point before u loose it or get confused with nothing to set u straight since no one can undurstand u or even comprehend your mind since it is so different from the rest.

i beleive insanity is a bad word since it sounds so,out of the ordinary,and humans in general dont like things out of the ordinary unless they can benifit from it.i beleive u have to be insane to be a geniuse since they really are both the same thing,to an extent or degree.they are both above and beyond the average mind,they both comprehend things that u couldnt unless u were insane and or a genius to the same extent.geniuses and people with different thinking is what makes humanity accell and become greater in thought and being as a whole,but this takes alot of time.so dont put down the crazy person but understand that he is either on a different page of thought or hes so confused and helpless since no one can trully understand what hes thinking, and help him out.

You actually make a very good point there. But if vibration = sound . then a tree does make a sound.

thats exactly what im pointing at!!! it does make a vibration,but its only a vibration untill our brains put these vibrations together into sounds.so there is no sound if there is no senses capable of turning this vibration into a sound that can be comprehended with our minds.if u were deaf and u were walking in the woods when that tree fell,then the vibrations would be happening in your presence,but your sense of sound wouldnt be able to connect it to your brain now would it, so therefore there wouldnt be any sound.just like the wind,its vibrating the air and matter around us and we feel it but if we didnt have any hearing senses then there wouldnt be any sound although we would feel it,and know its there only through the sense of touch.

so i still hold on to my beleife that there would be no universe if there wasnt a mind to comprehend it,and of course it would still be there in presence and matter without the comprehension but how would u know it was there.there wouldnt be any knowledge,there wouldnt be any meaning or anything.so therefor it wouldnt exsist in reality since we are reality.no reality without the thought of reality.

ok so im startin to confuse myself again,peace

%)

 

[NecroTrance]

You've got it backwards...Reality doesn't need us to exist, we need reality to exist. When your grandmother dies of cancer you are at her funeral to see her dead body in a casket. You smell the flowers upon her grave, not her. Although she still exists as organic inanimate matter, she has no comprehension of that existence, but you do. Reality is a constant, it will always be there...It's up to us to decide what to do with it, how to use it, how to exist within it, or...How to change it.

 

[JTNOLA5211]

Well put.....Thats in a nut shell what i was trying to explain.

 

[Acidfiend]

Perception is nothing more than chemical responses within our brain so essentially everything you perceive is created by you, as in those chemicals which trigger nerves are created in your own body by enzymes and proteins and such.

Substantially, we don't create the structures of that which we perceive, but we are the terminals that decide how to use those structures in order to formulate our own personal perception of the world.

Basically, we make that which we perceive, therefore being crazy isn't merely seeing something that's not there, it's moreso perceiving something that is not within your boundaries of imagination...Insanity sounds kinda like genius now, doesn't it?

And what do we have for our winner?...