• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | someguyontheinternet

What does 5-HT2a antagonism do? (more specifically, for depression.)

Sauce? I have never heard anything that suggests that's true.

Are you referring to me? If so, SERT inhibitors don't take 4-6 weeks to start increasing serotonin concentration in the brain, if the poster up there is correct it takes that long for the receptors to downregulate.
 
These paper's don't say anything about MDMA's ability to cause "Magic" because they weren't written by bluelighters, but they do explain the different mechanisms of MDMA and its enantiomers:

3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, "ecstasy") and its stereoisomers as reinforcers in rhesus monkeys: serotonergic involvement.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12073162

Pharmacological characterization of the effects of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine ("ecstasy") and its enantiomers on lethality, core temperature, and locomotor activity in singly housed and crowded mice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12563544

Fantegrossi has a whole series of papers comparing MDMA and its enantiomers, look him up if you're still interested.

Edit: As always if anyone has trouble accessing full text of any of the papers I link to just send me a PM.
 
Sorry, was referring to the person who claimed "both isomers are needed for the magic".
Good stuff endotropic!
 
Well, for one, 5HT2a receptors are autoreceptors, so an antagonist will raise the levels of endogenous 5HT.

It doesn't do anything to discredit the idea that more monoamines = more happiness. I don't subscribe to the view, but this is irrelevant.
 
Well, for one, 5HT2a receptors are autoreceptors, so an antagonist will raise the levels of endogenous 5HT.

Source? It's the first I've heard of that. Or do you mean 5-ht1a?

I'm curious about any evidence that blocking 5-ht2a causes increased serotonin levels (that Wizzle also suggested) as well. It sounds reasonable but I can't think of a good way to phrase it for a search. All I could really find is this:

... the selective 5-HT2A receptor antagonist MDL-100,907 (1 mg/kg) had no significant effect on extracellular 5-HT levels in either (mPFC, NAcc) region.

5HT-2A agonism is also why SSRI's cause sexual dysfunction, so this antipsychotic might actually help you get your dick hard!

Really? Why don't psychedelics usually cause sexual problems?
 
Source? It's the first I've heard of that. Or do you mean 5-ht1a?

Well, I meant 2a, but maybe I have the lines crossed. I feel certain that there are 5HT2a autoreceptors, but maybe I have a faulty memory today...
 
Well, I meant 2a, but maybe I have the lines crossed. I feel certain that there are 5HT2a autoreceptors, but maybe I have a faulty memory today...

I believe the only autoreceptors are the 1x receptors. 1a is a somatodendritic autoreceptor in the raphe nucleus, heteroreceptor elsewhere. 1b and 1d are presynaptic autoreceptors but I can't remember which brain regions.
 
Really? Why don't psychedelics usually cause sexual problems?


Well LSD and Mushrooms are partial agonists and the phospholipase they are preferential for is not the one that activates the adrenergic pathway. Newer full agonists like 25I-NBOMe would probably cause sexual dysfunction at psychedelic doses.
 
Eh, thinking about it the pharmacology of pretty much all psychedelics is too messy anyway to be able to say anything. I found this: http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v28/n2/full/1300057a.html

Activation of 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors also leads to opposing effects on sexual function in rodents (Berendsen et al, 1990), in a manner suggesting that activation of 5-HT2A receptors could be responsible for the sexual side effects of SSRIs.

But that reference isn't very convincing. Basically they found that mCPP induced erections were antagonised by 8-OH-DPAT (1A agonist, ED50 0.03mg/kg), 5-MeO-DMT (supposed to be their 5-HT2 agonist, but also has high 1A affinity, ED50 0.4mg/kg) and DOI (more 5-HT2 selective, ED? >1mg/kg). And do mCPP/TFMPP even 'induce' erections in humans? Antagonism of induced erections doesn't necessarily mean suppression of regular erections, and besides, that doesn't seem to be the effect of SSRI's. IME, and I think this is the most common, they just make achieving orgasm harder.

I'm still skeptical that 2A antagonism along with SSRI's is going to have any benefit. The nature paper says
The central thesis argued above is that 5-HT2A receptors actually oppose the therapeutic effects of activating non-5-HT2A receptors in diverse neuropsychiatric syndromes such as depression, OCD, and PDDs. This broad range of clinical effects may be caused by localization of 5-HT2A receptors at critical sites in the prefrontal cortex regulating cortico-striatal-pallidal-thalamic loops. The target receptor(s) that actually mediate the therapeutic effects of increased synaptic 5-HT caused by SSRIs is far from clear and may be different for these and other psychiatric syndromes.

But there's very little to be found about trials of really selective antagonists. They reference one with ritanserin, which seems quite well tolerated, so why is there nothing in the following 22 years? It doesn't really work, or not patentable? So instead we get this

Mean change in Montgomery-Asberg Depression Rating Scale total score was significantly greater with adjunctive aripiprazole than placebo (-8.5 vs -5.7; P = 0.001). Remission rates were significantly greater with adjunctive aripiprazole than placebo (25.4% vs 15.2%; P = 0.016) as were response rates (32.4% vs 17.4%; P < 0.001). Adverse events occurring in 10% of patients or more with adjunctive placebo or aripiprazole were akathisia (4.2% vs 25.9%), headache (10.5% vs 9.0%), and fatigue (3.7% vs 10.1%). Incidence of adverse events leading to discontinuation was low (adjunctive placebo [1.1%] vs adjunctive aripiprazole [3.7%]). Aripiprazole is an effective and safe adjunctive therapy as demonstrated in this short-term study for patients who are nonresponsive to standard ADT.

More criticism of that paper here. There is a trial registered for use of MDL-100,907 alongside escitalopram in depression, but it was last updated 5 years ago and hasn't been published so I guess it doesn't work.
 
An ED50 for a receptor affinity??? What? What's the Ki value for those receptors. an ED50 tells you nothing.
 
I never gave an ED50 for affinity, they're for reversal of the 'mCPP induced erections'. The only reason I mentioned affinity was to say that 5-MeO-DMT, which is the drug they used to show that agonism of the 2A receptor was effective, is also a 1A agonist. And when they used DOI which has less 1A affinity the ED was much higher.

Edit: I somehow missed this - The selective 5-HT2A receptor antagonist M100907 enhances antidepressant-like behavioral effects of the SSRI fluoxetine. :D So maybe I'll take back what I said, if it does turn out to work.
 
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I'm still skeptical that 2A antagonism along with SSRI's is going to have any benefit. The nature paper says

What about Trazodone? It may not be the best antidepressant and it's used mainly for insomnia nowadays, but it was still effective for some people with depression and it was mainly a 5-HT2a antagonist and it's effects on that receptor is what mainly helps depression according to Wikipedia. Its effects as a very mild SSRI (160Nm as opposed other SSRIs, sertaline for example binds to it at 3Nm if my memory isn't broken from all the stims I take), a mild 5-HT2c antagonist(192Nm), and a 5-HT1a partial agonist(78Nm) are only mildly attributed to it's effects. But maybe the mCPP does something for the depression too, I can't find conclusive evidence to say whether it does or not.

So much info on the fact that 5-HT2a antagonism may help depression, but no one has a clue how.
 
But there isn't much info - 2 studies that I can find with actual 5-HT2 selective antagonists - most of them use risperidone, aripiprazole, mirtazepine etc. Trazodone could be a good choice, but it shares alpha-1 adrenergic antagonism with the aforementioned drugs, so it's still not going to tell you if it's the 2A antagonism that's helping. Maybe it's just the sedation and not any specific effect? Even benzos seem to help a bit.
 
But there isn't much info - 2 studies that I can find with actual 5-HT2 selective antagonists - most of them use risperidone, aripiprazole, mirtazepine etc. Trazodone could be a good choice, but it shares alpha-1 adrenergic antagonism with the aforementioned drugs, so it's still not going to tell you if it's the 2A antagonism that's helping. Maybe it's just the sedation and not any specific effect? Even benzos seem to help a bit.

What exactly does a1 antagonism do? All I know about adrenoreceptors is that a2 agonism lowers norepinephrine and antagonism (I think) increases it.
 
Apparently mostly hypotensive. I figured it might cause sedation but I'm not so sure.
 
(And to add, 5-HT2a antagonists ARE great for insomnia, I take trazodone and it knocks me the hell out.)


Trazodone is also a relatively potent alpha-1 adrenoreceptor antagonist. This contributes significantly to its sedating properties, probably more so than it's 5-HT2a antagonism. It knocks me the hell out too, more reliably than traditional sedatives like benzos or Z-drugs (Ambien, etc).
 
5HT2A receptors are overactive in melancholic depression and can help that, antagonism wont help atypical depression. Agonism is beneficial for atypical depression and ocd.
 
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