What Did You Learn From High Dose of LSD?

[leanna.jc]

hi guys

I'm new to psychedelics. While I love LSD and mushroom on lower doses, I got some confusing results on higher doses. That's why I turn to BL.

While psychedelics saved my life, they seemed to turn the life of one of my friends even worse. In hope of helping him (who probably has personality disorder) get back on his feet, I tried to taught myself psychedelic psychotherapy, which is also what I want to pursue as my future career. I found the book "LSD Psychotherapy" by Stan Grof M.D. very useful in what I attempted to do. Before I can perform any session on my disturbed friend, I gotta try it myself, right? So I did. I took 450ug of acid with a friend babysitting me. Yet, all I did in the trip was hours of non-stop talking non-sense and I did not gain any kind of insight or transpersonal experience at all. It was pure confusion. It was nothing like what's described in the book, or anything like my previous wonderful life-changing experience on lower doses of LSD and mushroom.

I wonder what you guys experience on a high LSD dose?
Could someone please share your opinion on why this happened on me?
What could possibly go wrong in my trip?
Do you think LSD psychotherapy is applicable on everyone?
If I myself cannot benefit from it, how am I supposed to help others?
Do you think it's worth another try?

Any comments is highly appreciated!
(As there's almost no one I can talk to about psychedelics in my country T.T)
Thanks a lot...

 

[tokezu]

Before I can perform any session on my disturbed friend, I gotta try it myself, right?

Am I understanding this right that your friend has mental health issues which got worse because he used psychedelics and now you think taking a higher dose in your company will help him because you read a book by Grof? Sorry if I'm rude but this seems extremely careless and dangerous to me. Now if your friend comes to you and is deadset on trying to get better through a highdose experience definitely offer yourself as a tripsitter. But this sounds much more as if you want to convince him to take a high dose because with you there it can't possibly go wrong, you have read something by Grof after all! Please think about what kind of responsibility that puts on you and the kind of danger you would be putting you friend in.

LSD psychotherapy is not a magic cure and a lot of things can go wrong even if you are an actual mental health professional! I don't see what good could come from a layman trying to play that role.

 

[terarc]

In my opinion and experience, you have to wait until you are no longer learning or realising any personal revelations with lower doses (and low isn't really that low, I mean about 150mics of acid or equivalent) to have any benefit of going to higher doses. Higher doses are, quite simply, too confusing to be that useful unless you are very used to the experience or can naturally handle it.

I'd also wager that for the average person, a few intense learning / realisation experiences on a 'low' dose will require a period of sober integration that will probably be long enough that, by the time it's over, there are probably new things to be learned again from the same dose, meaning a higher dose experience could never be that necessary.

In my opinion if you are looking for a psychedelic experience of high intensity, such as would be achieved by taking ridiculous amounts of acid or mushrooms or 2C-X etc, specifically for the reason of seeking personal revelation, it would probably be more beneficial and psychologically safer to use DMT (smoked) or ayahuasca. This is because DMT is easily able to push people into intensely powerful psychedelic states without the need to push the dose up so high that other unpleasant side effects and after-effects begin to appear.

YMMV though, these are only my opinions based on my experiences. I have to say though I do not recommend trying to therapise someone who is under the influence of psychedelics without years of proper medical and psychiatric training, ESPECIALLY if that person suffers from genuine mental health issues. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Just focus on exploring psychedelics more yourself.

 

[Kaden_Nite]

I must have scrolled past that first part of your post when I replied before Leanna. I'm happy to share my experiences with people so that they can get a broader idea about how psychedelics affect different people, especially if they are in an area where they cannot speak openly about such things, but you're not a shaman and I really hope that you are not going to attempt to perform any kind of 'session' on somebody who has had negative experiences with such 'sessions' in the past.

I really scared myself the first time I did LSD by mistakenly -naively- taking far too much. That fear lasted a long time after the initial effects wore off- the world I came back to when the drug wore off did not feel the same as it was before. I decided to try it again some months later in much smaller amounts and eventually started to feel like I was landing in a familiar place when the trip came to an end. Now, I feel a sense of euphoria from my psychedelic experiences, not just during, but after as well. This has taken me a lot of time and I am lucky to have been able to work through a fear and feel better and more knowledgeable for it - but please do not take the risk of assuming that you can 'fix' your friends' problems with drugs. That is not your responsibility and I would hate for such an experience to intensify what they are already going through, which is a possibility.

 

[leanna.jc]

Re: tokezu
Appreciate your reply. You're right. I'm too inexperienced to help him with psychedelics. I was just too eager to help him because his behavior is making everyone worry.
He has zero self esteem and self worth. Recently he even started thinking about suicide.
Now I'm really frustrated because I just had a confusing high-dose trip that I couldn't myself learn anything.
Of course I'm not trying force him into a session but I am convinced that he has to gain new insights in order to save himself. And this is not something that can be taught by someone else (not by some psychologist or social worker) so I believe in psychedelics. The problem is which drug and what dose...
For example, MDMA perhaps can help a little at this stage...?
I'm not sure...Please share your valuable views and experiences.
Please tell me what I could do before he really does anything stupid...
Whether you still oppose to any drug use, I'd still be grateful for your sharing!

 

[CfZrx]

I literally realized that the religion I grew up practicing (Jehovah's Witnesses) was just some crazy dudes. Go LSD!

 

[leanna.jc]

In my opinion and experience, you have to wait until you are no longer learning or realising any personal revelations with lower doses (and low isn't really that low, I mean about 150mics of acid or equivalent) to have any benefit of going to higher doses. Higher doses are, quite simply, too confusing to be that useful unless you are very used to the experience or can naturally handle it.

I'd also wager that for the average person, a few intense learning / realisation experiences on a 'low' dose will require a period of sober integration that will probably be long enough that, by the time it's over, there are probably new things to be learned again from the same dose, meaning a higher dose experience could never be that necessary.

In my opinion if you are looking for a psychedelic experience of high intensity, such as would be achieved by taking ridiculous amounts of acid or mushrooms or 2C-X etc, specifically for the reason of seeking personal revelation, it would probably be more beneficial and psychologically safer to use DMT (smoked) or ayahuasca. This is because DMT is easily able to push people into intensely powerful psychedelic states without the need to push the dose up so high that other unpleasant side effects and after-effects begin to appear.

YMMV though, these are only my opinions based on my experiences. I have to say though I do not recommend trying to therapise someone who is under the influence of psychedelics without years of proper medical and psychiatric training, ESPECIALLY if that person suffers from genuine mental health issues. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Just focus on exploring psychedelics more yourself.

Thank you very much. I will not stop exploring myself! =)
I will personally attend an Ayahuasca ceremony in October. Guess will decide again after that!
While my friend actually wants to try DMT himself, I heard on the internet that DMT is not for everyone.
I hold conservative attitude towards letting him smoke DMT as I myself haven't tried that yet.
From your knowledge, does someone benefit from DMT even if it scares him out? or is it possible that someone get worse after smoking DMT?

 

[leanna.jc]

I must have scrolled past that first part of your post when I replied before Leanna. I'm happy to share my experiences with people so that they can get a broader idea about how psychedelics affect different people, especially if they are in an area where they cannot speak openly about such things, but you're not a shaman and I really hope that you are not going to attempt to perform any kind of 'session' on somebody who has had negative experiences with such 'sessions' in the past.

I really scared myself the first time I did LSD by mistakenly -naively- taking far too much. That fear lasted a long time after the initial effects wore off- the world I came back to when the drug wore off did not feel the same as it was before. I decided to try it again some months later in much smaller amounts and eventually started to feel like I was landing in a familiar place when the trip came to an end. Now, I feel a sense of euphoria from my psychedelic experiences, not just during, but after as well. This has taken me a lot of time and I am lucky to have been able to work through a fear and feel better and more knowledgeable for it - but please do not take the risk of assuming that you can 'fix' your friends' problems with drugs. That is not your responsibility and I would hate for such an experience to intensify what they are already going through, which is a possibility.

Hi Kaden_Nite

Thanks for your reply! I realized that I'm naive that way. But please understand the urgent need to help my friend here as he's recently thinking about suicide. While I myself was absolutely suicidal before too, mushroom changed my life perspective and brought me back down from the roof. I'm hoping that the drugs can do the same "magic" on him...
Since different drugs have very different effects on people, it's really frustrating in determining which one helps...
Do you think it's worth continuing low dose trips for him?

 

[Kaden_Nite]

I definitely wouldn't want to be the one suggesting he take it again. If he decides to, I would definitely advise very low-dose. It could potentially show him that it's nothing to be scared of, but could also be the straw that broke the camel's back. Counseling and getting involved in activities that he can look forward to are the best advice that I can give. It can take time, but things can always get better. Make sure to remind him of that.

Hope it works out.

 

[tokezu]

Re: tokezu
Appreciate your reply. You're right. I'm too inexperienced to help him with psychedelics. I was just too eager to help him because his behavior is making everyone worry.
He has zero self esteem and self worth. Recently he even started thinking about suicide.
Now I'm really frustrated because I just had a confusing high-dose trip that I couldn't myself learn anything.
Of course I'm not trying force him into a session but I am convinced that he has to gain new insights in order to save himself. And this is not something that can be taught by someone else (not by some psychologist or social worker) so I believe in psychedelics. The problem is which drug and what dose...
For example, MDMA perhaps can help a little at this stage...?
I'm not sure...Please share your valuable views and experiences.
Please tell me what I could do before he really does anything stupid...
Whether you still oppose to any drug use, I'd still be grateful for your sharing!

I can totally understand! I think many people when they are new to psychedelics and have had extraordinary experiences can get a little preachy about it, thinking that everybody would benefit from doing the same. I know I did. But the thing is that it really doesn't work for everybody and for every situation. And while I too have benefitted from psychedelics in regards to depression/suicidality it really can go either way, there is no guarantee that it won't make everything worse. This goes for MDMA too, on the one hand it can be an easier, less confusing and distinctly positive experience, on the other hand it is well known to cause feelings of depression in the following days which means the pendulum can swing back that much more with somebody who already has problems with that.

This really doesn't mean that I would generally oppose drug use in that situation, I just think you need to be very careful not to push anything onto your friend and try to make the decision for him. I think psychedelics offer the most to people who deliberately seek them out, it's very different to be just offered something and say "Ok, why not?". So I think the most important thing is don't assume that you know what is best for your friend only he himself can know that. Don't be too keen on suggesting a certain approach, just make clear that you are willing to help with whatever approach he thinks is most promising. What for me has been most helpful was being encouraged to just speak my mind, because when I tried to express my depressive thoughts to others it suddenly became clear that what I had thought to be irrefutably logical was in fact quite the opposite. Friends are great for that, but don't underestimate mental health professionals neither, it's just something different to talk to somebody and being able to just not give a shit about how what you say makes them feel. It has definitely helped me.

Best of luck to you and your friend!

 

[Muzda Jonxx]

On high dose LSD I did for a fleeting 30 seconds realise the meaning of life. I was floating way up in space at this point, the earth was just a tiny dot many miles below. Absolutely everything suddenly fell into place. But then I forgot again almost as soon as the revelation came to me. Damn cosmic joker.

I think my friend put it into perspective best. He said he likes to take acid once a year, to take his life in a different direction. And I know what he means, you don't always know if you came back to earth the same person that left.

 

[terarc]

Thank you very much. I will not stop exploring myself! =)
I will personally attend an Ayahuasca ceremony in October. Guess will decide again after that!
While my friend actually wants to try DMT himself, I heard on the internet that DMT is not for everyone.
I hold conservative attitude towards letting him smoke DMT as I myself haven't tried that yet.
From your knowledge, does someone benefit from DMT even if it scares him out? or is it possible that someone get worse after smoking DMT?

I would say any psychedelic could be 'not for everyone' and they would all be equally capable of helping an individual with mental health problems as much as they are of hurting them. Although I am not diagnosed with any mental illnesses, my mental health at points can be far from perfect, and I have found to be true that the use of psychedelic drugs or MDMA during these times is a total coin toss. Unfortunately in my opinion it is not worth the risk, there are other ways to recover from mental health difficulties that don't involve such dangers to your mental health.

 

[TheBlackPirate]

I learned, I had much to learn.

 

[Bluuberry]

Thank you very much. I will not stop exploring myself! =)
I will personally attend an Ayahuasca ceremony in October. Guess will decide again after that!
While my friend actually wants to try DMT himself, I heard on the internet that DMT is not for everyone.
I hold conservative attitude towards letting him smoke DMT as I myself haven't tried that yet.
From your knowledge, does someone benefit from DMT even if it scares him out? or is it possible that someone get worse after smoking DMT?

terarc pretty much summed it up. In my opinion your friend should stop using psychedelics and pursue yoga, exercise, and a healthy diet. Start with the basics and the emotional stuff will sort itself out as you take care of the needs of the body to the fullest. If he went downhill after psychedelic experience, it would stand to reason that it's not an appropriate medicine for him at this time. I understand your enthusiasm but this stuff isn't for everyone, and even the people that it IS useful for, it's not useful all of the time. Tripping with a distressed mental state like you describe him feeling is just asking for trouble.

For your friend, again, healthy lifestyle is the best cure for what you describe, coupled with some energy work such as certain forms of yoga, acupuncture, Qi Gong, flower essences (can't be more specific with the tiny amount of info given).

And as for your question about being scared by DMT: from what I've seen people overthink it way too much and read way too much, and have this idea of what they think it's going to be like. It's probably not going to be like whatever you think it is. It's very different from everything else, and every experience with it tends to be different, although there are certain common themes that pop up. It's almost never scary. People just talk more about the scary trips because that's how humans are. The biggest thing is to have silence or relaxing music and no talking or engine sounds, background noise, etc. It's such an indescribable thing that language is not very useful for sharing the experience, in my opinion. I think the art and music inspired by it are more accurate at giving a glimpse into that space, but even then it's really just a glimpse into a whole universe.

Oh, and to actually answer your question: I've never needed to take a high dose, but I sure have learned a lot from the ++++ experiences I've been blessed with from single hits (~100mic range). I'm curious about the upper end but the confusion and effects on my muscles are already very apparent at the peak of a solid hit, so I don't think I have any desire to go past that unless something changes. I love being lucid in my trips; being confused is kind of interesting but it's also very dangerous and less enjoyable than when I'm able to actually hold coherent, interesting conversations with people.

 

[Batwing133]

Lsd for me allowed me to seek truths that i have already either seeked or was gonna seek on my own, the role that the lsd has in the truth seeking experience is that is speeds up the process ten fold (for me anyway) and really allows me to reach all of these revelations in a shorter amount of time than i would have without the lsd. That being said not all of the revelations are reached right there in the 12 hours or however long you are tripping. They can also come much later from a series of thoughts including ones that you happened to have during your different perspective while tripping combined with ideas, concepts, and thoughts that you already know.

People go into lsd being too specific of what they want to gain out of the experience and then being disappointed because it wasn't exactly what they expected it to be. Sorry but if you are taking lsd and expecting it to just take away everything that is bad or gain some kind of special insight that others aren't able to reach without it then you are out of luck. Sure all of the visuals and mystical "illusions" that lsd has to offer are kind of only part of the lsd experience for the most part, all truths that are revealed are only ones that your brain was capable of thinking of without the drug because at the end of the day everything you think of while on lsd still used all of the concepts that you have previously learned.

I would also explain lsd as way to simply imagine everything as much more of a whole rather than putting significance on the petty things that we normally prioritize(if that makes sense to you?)

an example of this is a truth that i found to be much more pronounced after using psychs (ALTHOUGH was present before) is the corruption of so many people who we are told not to question. That being any figure of authority but mostly the goverment and then also people of religion of which we are told to respect their beliefs.
I now refuse to respect any religion unless is doesn't involve any hate upon anyone or try to influence people or threaten anyone with eternal damnation. this to me before psychs was just the norm and now it makes me sick! everyone who follows these stupid religions have honestly fucking never read thier own books obviously or else they would feel different about identifying themselves as such.

If you are a woman or a homosexual and you happen to be a christian or muslim i just want to say.... ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?? first of all in the new testiment "YES NEW TESTIMENT" it states that if you are a woman you are not worthy of being a preacher and that also you are not allowed to talk in the church, if you have any questions about anything you must refer to your husband when you are at home. so if youre a woman and a christian SHUT THE FUCK UP IN CHURCH BITCH is what what the bible says lol.

Now if you are a gay in both religions atleast in christianity you get to wait until death to be punished but in the muslim faith it states very clearly in their holy book that they are worthy of death. another fun fact is that if you are a man and you happen to be raped by another man that you are now worthy of death as well according to the muslim faith i guess because you are now tainted in some way...... sick.

For all you angry ones out there who are of faith and have something to say about this then please tell me all about how i am INTERPRETING it wrong and please tell everyone how you want to cherry pick what you want to believe in because that is what 99% of all you people do anyways is cherry pick what you want to believe. The 1% of the people who actually do follow thier religions to everything that they are supposed to get slapped with the label of being "radical" and crazy. so sad when will this stupid fairytale games end and when are people going to realize that good morals don't have to come from religion.

RESPECT??? pssttt please i dont give respect to such hate and ridiculousness.

 

[Echapa]

Actually, Batwing,

LSD taught me that all religions are right in some way, and wrong in the other. It's up to you to discern right from wrong and make the best of it in this journey that is (you).

There's the energy we're all made of, Earth and the planets, the animals, even water is all the same fundamental energy. We are the captains of our bodies, our physical manifestations. It's like mushroom fruiting from mycelium.

The Christians have it right with Jesus Christ, it's nothing more than one name of the creator manifested on Earth.

---HAVE TO CUT IT SHORT, OUT TO EAT

What the great teach is, is love.
Love yourself. (should be resonant, the teachings of Buddhism)

 

[Hexagon Sun]

To OP:

The big teaching of heroic doses are that are kind of futile, exhausting and somehow, mentally dangerous. The light and the insight lie between the medium and mostly the low dose spectrum.

In most drugs, and specially in psychs, less is more. After ten years exploring tons of substances in tons of dosages, microdoses wins most of the time. Also 450mc is waay a heavy dose!.

Not more drugs to your friend, but the yoga and healthy diet. Also DMT is lovely, unique and not that scary the 95% of the timefor the `real´ psychonauts as you seem. You will love that.

So, explore the low dosages as suggested before. And go for be the next S. Grof. Enjoy the ride, you have all the time in the world