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News Were These Doctors Treating Pain or Dealing Drugs?

I think the doctor is in the wrong if he's trying to create addicts, which I think is not true in most cases. These pill mill docs know there is a demand and they are fulfilling it. In my book it's that simple. It's not morally wrong, it's actually much more noble of a stance than 99% of people "fighting the drug war". Informed adults should have access to a safe supply of their drug of choice.
 
I think the doctor is in the wrong if he's trying to create addicts, which I think is not true in most cases. These pill mill docs know there is a demand and they are fulfilling it. In my book it's that simple. It's not morally wrong, it's actually much more noble of a stance than 99% of people "fighting the drug war". Informed adults should have access to a safe supply of their drug of choice.
i would tend to agree with this sentiment.

one could argue that doctors like this are basically running something like a methadone or buprenorphine clinic, just with mu opioid agonists that people actually want. not that the DEA would care about that… but yeah i agree that it can be effective harm reduction given that the doctor is acting with the principles of safe supply and harm reduction in mind.

it certainly is tricky to say if a doctor is just “trying to create addicts” vs. legitimately fulfilling the principle of primum non nocere though. that said, i think pharma sales people are much more guilty of creating addicts than doctors, that’s for sure.
 
There are doctors doing decades in jail or stripped of licenses that were very legitimate and not pill mills. There were just treating super severe patients who's needs exceeded the CDCs 2016 guidelines which the DEA weaponized against doctors and patients since they were failing miserably against the cartel...easier targets.

Luckily the CDC just retracted their bullshit guidelines a month or so ago basically saying they were a mistake.

Will the DEA stop justifying this attack on patients that jas gone way beyond getting pill mills? Probably not. They want to create more fent addicts so they can point to how bad the drug problem is and get more money to fight it.
The ONLY way this travesty perpetrated against all Chronic Pain Patients and the substantial number of people weaned downed severely, and/or taken off all Opioid pain medications, abandonment by one's doctor, as well as the resulting suicides from these savage courses of action, would be for the CDC to admit they were well-intended at the time, but horribly misguided in coming out with the original guideline version some 6 years ago, and just DESTROY IT NOW! No
updates are needed. We don't need any mandated versions, nor any CDC/DEA oversight between a doctor and their pain patients at all! With the lone exception of proven "Pill Mills." Just get rid of these guidelines completely, and get out of the middle, coming between a doctor and his pain patient, as well as the patient and their pharmacy.
BTW, they took their recommendation of 90 MME and reduced it to 50 MME.
 
BTW, they took their recommendation of 90 MME and reduced it to 50 MME.
Do you have a source for that because that's the compete opposite of what I've read about the Februrart 2022 guidelines.

I havnt read the CDC new guidelines draft itself since it's long document and it just was released. But it's being heralded as a positive step in the right direction.

My understanding of the MME issue, from reading various articles by pain advocacy groups whixh hate the CDC, is that the new guidelines eliminate the 90 MME limit and focus the dosage onto "patient needs" and "individualized aporoaches." So If a patient was on more to begin with or the disease requires more, doctors are allowed to prescribe more than 90 MME based on a chronic pain patients specific, individial needs

Also cutting ppl off cold turkey has been advised against as well as tapers for no legitimate medical reason besides just getting ppl off opioids.

I think acute pain patients are still fucked and told to bit the bullet (surgeries etc)...but every pain advocacy geoup seems to portray the mew Feb 2022 guildines as a positive change in the right direction for chronic pain. It would seem cutting the MME in half would be a major disaster for pain patients so I domt get why advocacy groups would be happy going grom 90 to 50 MME.

Do you have e a source for this.

Here's one article that explains the "individualized" approach rather than just applying the same 90 MME dose to all patients https://www.clinicalpainadvisor.com...-opioid-prescribing-affect-clinical-practice/
 
Interesting.

I mean, if we are giving "doctors" ultimate authority when it comes to dispensing drugs, which we do as a society, how the fuck can we jail one that was giving "too much" strong medicine?

I haven't read into his case, and maybe someone died from his prescribing habits? But if that's the case, he should be charged with malpractice and not "dealing drugs".

Of course, this is my opinion based on how society actually operates, and not on how it "should" really.
So us the Jury looking for an aggregate amount of opioids dispensed that doesn’t look too greedy when compared to the average prescribing Physician? Essentially, what is a polite amount of opioids that I can prescribe?
 
Interesting.

I mean, if we are giving "doctors" ultimate authority when it comes to dispensing drugs, which we do as a society, how the fuck can we jail one that was giving "too much" strong medicine?

I haven't read into his case, and maybe someone died from his prescribing habits? But if that's the case, he should be charged with malpractice and not "dealing drugs".

Of course, this is my opinion based on how society actually operates, and not on how it "should" really.
It goes way beyond prescribing too much medication they were two of the Insys drs who were getting kickbacks for raising the doseages of that medication as well as being paid by the company for speaking engagements that were fake. I believe that drs should be prescribing opiods for chronic pain but what these drs did was overprescribe to line their pockets and overprescribe is an insane amount




Of particular importance in the trial were two brand name instant-release fentanyl drugs — Subsys and Abstral. Both Subsys and Abstral are only FDA-indicated for breakthrough cancer pain in opioid-tolerant adult patients. However, evidence showed that Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch almost exclusively prescribed these drugs off-label for neck, back, and joint pain. The jury found that Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch received illegal kickbacks from Insys Therapeutics, the manufacturer of Subsys, in exchange for the defendants prescribing massive quantities of this drug. Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch were both among the top prescribers of Subsys in the entire United States. Evidence showed that Dr. Ruan began donating his Insys kickback payments the day after he received a copy of a criminal complaint from the Eastern District of Michigan against Dr. Gavin Awerbuch, another prolific Subsys prescriber who had been charged with receiving kickbacks from Insys. The United States argued that Dr. Ruan’s decision to donate his Insys money was done in an attempt to distance himself from the company.

Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch were the number one and two prescribers of Abstral in the entire United States. During this same time period, nearly one out of every three Abstral prescriptions written in the U.S. were written by either Dr. Ruan or Dr. Couch.

As part of their criminal enterprise, Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch owned C&R Pharmacy, which was co-located with one of the PPSA clinic locations. C&R Pharmacy would only fill prescriptions written by the doctors at PPSA, and Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch split 75% of the profits that came in from the prescription drug reimbursements. Approximately 91% of the Subsys and Abstral prescriptions written by the defendants — which cost patients’ insurance anywhere between $1,000.00 to $24,000.00 per month — were filled

I understand your comment but this is not too much government oversight this is abusing your patients not caring what happens to them at all they are just a source of revenue that’s why they drug dealers not doctors
In addition to C&R Pharmacy, the defendants also had a worker’s compensation dispensary, from which they directly dispensed Controlled Substances. The jury heard evidence that Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch received guaranteed monthly kickbacks from a dispensary management company — Industrial Pharmaceuticals Management (“IPM”) and later Comprehensive Rx (“CRX”) — in exchange for the defendants dispensing certain drugs with high reimbursement rates. These monthly guaranteed amounts reached $80,000.00 per month for Dr. Ruan and $20,000.00 per month for Dr. Couch. The millions paid in kickbacks to the defendants associated with the worker’s compensation dispensary went into private bank accounts set up by the defendants.

While there were some patients who received legitimate medical care at PPSA, the jury heard evidence that many patients rarely saw either of the doctors, and that the nurse practitioners who treated Dr. Couch’s patients were abusing drugs at the work place and then seeing patients. In addition, the jury heard evidence that Dr. Couch knowingly permitted one of his nurse practitioners, Justin Palmer, to forge Dr. Couch’s name on prescriptions for Controlled Substances. Palmer testified that he forged Dr. Couch’s name approximately 25,000 times while working at PPSA.
 
Regardless of the facts of this case, it is on the prosecution to prove the intent of the doctor. If the prosecution can establish that (they probably could have in this case tbh if they directed their efforts accordingly) then the doctor can be found guilty.

This Supreme Court ruling only affirms that scienter requirement. To make the defendant prove that they are “reasonable” is wonky legal territory if you ask me. The burden should fall on the prosecution to prove that someone’s actions were not reasonable.

Had the US govt gone for a different argument from the get go, they may have won. But to suggest that acting outside of “standard of medical practice“ necessarily implies one is not acting in “good faith” is quite frankly not a solid argument

But keep in mind, I am not a lawyer so the above analysis may be entirely wrong 😄
 
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I just finished writing a huge thesis on the opiate crisis in Canada for a health policy course, and a big sub-section was on the history of the problem. The pharmaceutical industry + drug dealing physicians are 100% to blame for what happened after Oxy hit the market. Big pharma deliberately fudged their data to downplay addictiveness, and patients were told point blank to their faces that there was no addictive potential. And what happened? Just some fines. The perpetrators are still at large, running these companies.

Until executives of big corporations actually face prison time in the GENERAL PRISON POPULATION, this psychopathic pattern will only repeat itself. The other thing we need to do is loosen the tort laws so that MDs can be much more easily sued. As it currently stands, it's very hard to successfully sue a physician for harming you, even if you have good evidence. The system protects them from indemnity just like their corporate overlords.
 
I just finished writing a huge thesis on the opiate crisis in Canada for a health policy course, and a big sub-section was on the history of the problem. The pharmaceutical industry + drug dealing physicians are 100% to blame for what happened after Oxy hit the market. Big pharma deliberately fudged their data to downplay addictiveness, and patients were told point blank to their faces that there was no addictive potential. And what happened? Just some fines. The perpetrators are still at large, running these companies.
Largely agree. Maybe not 100%, but they have a lot of culpability. It’s seriously fucked up to do what they did and the lack of true consequences for them is not right

Until executives of big corporations actually face prison time in the GENERAL PRISON POPULATION, this psychopathic pattern will only repeat itself. The other thing we need to do is loosen the tort laws so that MDs can be much more easily sued. As it currently stands, it's very hard to successfully sue a physician for harming you, even if you have good evidence. The system protects them from indemnity just like their corporate overlords.
Disagree here.

What will pharmacy execs sitting in Rikers island do to curb fentanyl deaths ? Perhaps it will dissuade future execs from doing similar things with other drugs. But realistically it will not stop the machine that is big pharma. It sucks but imo that’s just the way it is. I’m just not sure that lengthy drawn out legal battles are the best allocation of the limited resources our society has dedicated to solving “the drug problem”

I see how this may contradict my first sentence stating my agreement with you. My response to that potential criticism is that while I agree in principle they should answer for their wrongdoings, I think that in practice this is not a worthwhile endeavor

As for suing doctors... I understand the motivation. But I think that could actually have the unintended consequence of doctors become even more fearful of prescribing opioids. And most contemporary evidence indicates that less opioids scripts leads to more overdoses as people move to illicit opioids instead. I’m not even entirely opposed to the idea, but i don’t think it’s so black and white
 
Largely agree. Maybe not 100%, but they have a lot of culpability. It’s seriously fucked up to do what they did and the lack of true consequences for them is not right


Disagree here.

What will pharmacy execs sitting in Rikers island do to curb fentanyl deaths ? Perhaps it will dissuade future execs from doing similar things with other drugs. But realistically it will not stop the machine that is big pharma. It sucks but imo that’s just the way it is. I’m just not sure that lengthy drawn out legal battles are the best allocation of the limited resources our society has dedicated to solving “the drug problem”

In terms of opiates, I don't think that genie can be put back into the bottle... but real criminal punishment does send a message, that white collar crime is not acceptable.

I don't think it has to be either/or, resources are not that limited. We can hold corporate criminals responsible while still dealing with their societal fallout.

They are literally allowed to lie to people in ways that could get them killed, and nothing happens to them. If I lied to you about the safety of a pill and then you took it and died, I would go to prison.

I see how this may contradict my first sentence stating my agreement with you. My response to that potential criticism is that while I agree in principle they should answer for their wrongdoings, I think that in practice this is not a worthwhile endeavor

As for suing doctors... I understand the motivation. But I think that could actually have the unintended consequence of doctors become even more fearful of prescribing opioids. And most contemporary evidence indicates that less opioids scripts leads to more overdoses as people move to illicit opioids instead. I’m not even entirely opposed to the idea, but i don’t think it’s so black and white

Why isn't enforcing consequences worthwhile? Why is letting people who are criminally negligent continue their same behaviours preferable to consequences?

I didn't think my proposal was black or white. I still would defer to the court system and burden of evidence. If doctors are running pill mills then they should go to prison. It's that simple. They have too much immunity from the law and it's not right.

Laws can be crafted and enforced in a way that makes this matter unambiguous, so that the tort system isn't abused for perceived slights by patients. The state of modern medicine is abysmal in the United States. Doctors can be negligent in care and nothing happens. We've all heard stories or experienced this directly.

I am on the verge of applying to medical school and I'm not applying to the U.S. or Canada for the very reason that the education all centers around big pharma. Doctors barely practice medicine anymore. They all just have big blue books from big pharma that they reference to push pills. It's shitty medicine that leads to poor outcomes, and the corporate system aids and abets it. Most people who go to the doctor for chronic conditions are not getting quality care. They get pills with dubious effects.
 
In terms of opiates, I don't think that genie can be put back into the bottle... but real criminal punishment does send a message, that white collar crime is not acceptable.

I don't think it has to be either/or, resources are not that limited. We can hold corporate criminals responsible while still dealing with their societal fallout.

They are literally allowed to lie to people in ways that could get them killed, and nothing happens to them. If I lied to you about the safety of a pill and then you took it and died, I would go to prison.

Has imprisoning peddlers of street drugs sent the message that their “blue collar crime” is not acceptable ? I’m not sure punishment as a deterrent would work for the white collar case either. And like I said, I’m not against it entirely. But I’m not convinced the sending a message argument is a good enough one to justify the resources being used on this front

True, it’s not either/or, I concede that. I would be happy if the money won from the lawsuits went directly into local harm reduction programs, but I’m not confident it will. I just really hope it doesn’t go into invariably unsuccessful interdiction efforts.


Why isn't enforcing consequences worthwhile? Why is letting people who are criminally negligent continue their same behaviours preferable to consequences?

I didn't think my proposal was black or white. I still would defer to the court system and burden of evidence. If doctors are running pill mills then they should go to prison. It's that simple. They have too much immunity from the law and it's not right.

Laws can be crafted and enforced in a way that makes this matter unambiguous, so that the tort system is abused for perceived slights by patients. The state of modern medicine is abysmal in the United States. Doctors can be negligent in care and nothing happens. We've all heard stories or experienced this directly.

I think the efforts are better spent on local harm reduction, that’s my bottom line. At a certain point, I don’t care what these companies did. We’re here now and we should be funneling the money into things that are proven to reduce overdose deaths. As said above, it’s great if the settlement money is used for harm reduction but I recall at least one case in North Carolina where the money went to a 12 step based church group (I’ll have to dig up the article to double check the details). To me that is not worth the time or money spent


Onto the medical malpractice law… I don’t really care about pill mills today tbh. Imo if an individual wants e.g. hydromorphone they should be able to walk into a pharmacy and buy it. I strongly believe in legalizing all drugs (albeit with some strong regulation). In todays legal climate they only way to do this is with a doctors prescription so I don’t care if a doctor is writing opioid scripts at the patients request. They definitely should be honest about dependency and addiction risks though, which I admit historically didn’t always happen.

With regards to crafting “unambigous laws”: Good luck. We wouldn’t need judges if all laws were unambigous, an algorithm could do it. But English is an imprecise language and I don’t think an unambiguous law about tort will ever be created
 
Has imprisoning peddlers of street drugs sent the message that their “blue collar crime” is not acceptable ? I’m not sure punishment as a deterrent would work for the white collar case either. And like I said, I’m not against it entirely. But I’m not convinced the sending a message argument is a good enough one to justify the resources being used on this front

I agree with you about every day drug dealers. We will never stop them all. But MDs have licenses with clinical requirements (like record keeping), so their activities are easily monitored and punished. I watched a documentary last year (can't remember the name) about a walk-in clinic in Detroit that opened every evening at 6pm until midnight, and it was an opiate mill. She was dishing out Rxs in exchange for money and her patrons were lined up around the block. The people doing the documentary doxxed the MD and went to the College of Physicians, but nothing happened to her. This is what I'm talking about.

Treating addicts fairly is a separate matter from going after physicians who abuse their power. Every day drug dealers are not medical experts. MDs know EXACTLY what these drugs do and the repercussions. They are held to a higher standard, or they should be. It makes my blood boil.

True, it’s not either/or, I concede that. I would be happy if the money won from the lawsuits went directly into local harm reduction programs, but I’m not confident it will. I just really hope it doesn’t go into invariably unsuccessful interdiction efforts.

The problems are system wide so I agree with you in the sense that going after a few bad apples will not totally stop the problem, but it at least sends the message that there is some attempt to make sure these people don't get to commit crimes with impunity. Think about all the drug dealers who went to prison in the U.S. under the three strikes rule, yet doctors who create addicts get off scott free. How is that right?

I am more interested in preventing new addicts from being created. The vast majority of opiate addicts in the U.S. were created by physicians after Oxy hit the market. They weren't created by petty dealers on street corners. Those dealers simply took advantage of a captive market of addicts.

I think the efforts are better spent on local harm reduction, that’s my bottom line. At a certain point, I don’t care what these companies did. We’re here now and we should be funneling the money into things that are proven to reduce overdose deaths. As said above, it’s great if the settlement money is used for harm reduction but I recall at least one case in North Carolina where the money went to a 12 step based church group (I’ll have to dig up the article to double check the details). To me that is not worth the time or money spent

I'm all for harm reduction, but harm reduction is an end-user approach. It's damage control. How are addicts created? Mostly they are chronic pain patients who got hooked on opiate Rxs. Then the winds of policy mostly shifted, leaving them high and dry... except for the MDs out there who have nothing to do with harm reduction and are preying on addicts, no different than dealers.

It's not enough to poo poo the past. The past is not over. There are doctors still violating their oath, right now. I am not interested in punishing addicts. I am interested in punishing pill pushing doctors and the industries that abet them. Big pharma is out of control. They are responsible for the opiate crisis.

Onto the medical malpractice law… I don’t really care about pill mills today tbh. Imo if an individual wants e.g. hydromorphone they should be able to walk into a pharmacy and buy it. I strongly believe in legalizing all drugs (albeit with some strong regulation). In todays legal climate they only way to do this is with a doctors prescription so I don’t care if a doctor is writing opioid scripts at the patients request. They definitely should be honest about dependency and addiction risks though, which I admit historically didn’t always happen.

I'm in favour of decriminalization but not legalization. Harm reduction looks at providing for current addicts while avoiding the creation of new ones. What you are proposing is mass population addiction and I'm not in favour of that. Have you ever studied the Opium Wars of China? Britain hooked an entire nation on opium and almost destroyed China from the inside out.

I support approaches like what Portugal has done. They decriminalized small possession and then channeled a lot of money into HR. What is not widely known though is that they created strict rules for prescribing opiates.

What our society needs is a medical system that actually functions to treat chronic pain, without drugs as the first line. I work in holistic medicine (for now), and I have seen many chronic pain patients come of drugs or avoid them altogether because of simple things like acupuncture, IMS, and massage. When you visit an MD for chronic pain, they give you drugs and just say oh well. It's draconian. There are real methods to cure chronic pain. Drug mills are lazy, corporate racketeering.

With regards to crafting “unambigous laws”: Good luck. We wouldn’t need judges if all laws were unambigous, an algorithm could do it. But English is an imprecise language and I don’t think an unambiguous law about tort will ever be created

Maybe in the U.S. that's true, but in Canada MDs can be held liable for improper prescribing. By "unambiguous", I mean it's not hard to craft laws that set out of mandatory guidelines for who gets opiates and for how long. The rules have tightened a lot in the last decade. Commensurate with this, is funding for HR to deal with people who are already addicted.

I don't favour legalization because I don't want to see a totally drugged out population. Whether or not you want to admit it, addiction is largely preventable at the front end, and you do that by restricting access and providing proper pain care. People who aren't already addicted don't just go looking for opiates on the street at random. They are incentivized by lack of support combined with naive exposure by MDs. I agree with you about HR funding though. It's desperately needed.

(Sorry for any typos.)
 
It goes way beyond prescribing too much medication they were two of the Insys drs who were getting kickbacks for raising the doseages of that medication as well as being paid by the company for speaking engagements that were fake. I believe that drs should be prescribing opiods for chronic pain but what these drs did was overprescribe to line their pockets and overprescribe is an insane amount




Of particular importance in the trial were two brand name instant-release fentanyl drugs — Subsys and Abstral. Both Subsys and Abstral are only FDA-indicated for breakthrough cancer pain in opioid-tolerant adult patients. However, evidence showed that Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch almost exclusively prescribed these drugs off-label for neck, back, and joint pain. The jury found that Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch received illegal kickbacks from Insys Therapeutics, the manufacturer of Subsys, in exchange for the defendants prescribing massive quantities of this drug. Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch were both among the top prescribers of Subsys in the entire United States. Evidence showed that Dr. Ruan began donating his Insys kickback payments the day after he received a copy of a criminal complaint from the Eastern District of Michigan against Dr. Gavin Awerbuch, another prolific Subsys prescriber who had been charged with receiving kickbacks from Insys. The United States argued that Dr. Ruan’s decision to donate his Insys money was done in an attempt to distance himself from the company.

Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch were the number one and two prescribers of Abstral in the entire United States. During this same time period, nearly one out of every three Abstral prescriptions written in the U.S. were written by either Dr. Ruan or Dr. Couch.

As part of their criminal enterprise, Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch owned C&R Pharmacy, which was co-located with one of the PPSA clinic locations. C&R Pharmacy would only fill prescriptions written by the doctors at PPSA, and Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch split 75% of the profits that came in from the prescription drug reimbursements. Approximately 91% of the Subsys and Abstral prescriptions written by the defendants — which cost patients’ insurance anywhere between $1,000.00 to $24,000.00 per month — were filled

I understand your comment but this is not too much government oversight this is abusing your patients not caring what happens to them at all they are just a source of revenue that’s why they drug dealers not doctors
In addition to C&R Pharmacy, the defendants also had a worker’s compensation dispensary, from which they directly dispensed Controlled Substances. The jury heard evidence that Dr. Ruan and Dr. Couch received guaranteed monthly kickbacks from a dispensary management company — Industrial Pharmaceuticals Management (“IPM”) and later Comprehensive Rx (“CRX”) — in exchange for the defendants dispensing certain drugs with high reimbursement rates. These monthly guaranteed amounts reached $80,000.00 per month for Dr. Ruan and $20,000.00 per month for Dr. Couch. The millions paid in kickbacks to the defendants associated with the worker’s compensation dispensary went into private bank accounts set up by the defendants.

While there were some patients who received legitimate medical care at PPSA, the jury heard evidence that many patients rarely saw either of the doctors, and that the nurse practitioners who treated Dr. Couch’s patients were abusing drugs at the work place and then seeing patients. In addition, the jury heard evidence that Dr. Couch knowingly permitted one of his nurse practitioners, Justin Palmer, to forge Dr. Couch’s name on prescriptions for Controlled Substances. Palmer testified that he forged Dr. Couch’s name approximately 25,000 times while working at PPSA.
Thanks for your comment, very informative.

Just to say, my comment was more a question on a philosophical level than a statement of any kind, as I admitted in the first place that I didn't read into the case.

But yes, it sounds to me like those doctors committed many various crimes.
 
Jailing drug "dealers" is a moronic useless wack a mole wasteful endeavor.

The only responsibility lies with the individual that chooses to out a drug, a needle, or whatever into their body. And the consequences of doing that inna way every damn person knows in their gut is wrong....is enough "prison" for anyone involved in this whole ecosystem of drugs
 
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