Weighing pure psychedelic compounds

[Sllip]

Kinda on topic - remember that not every drug has a 'linear dose response'. This means that a 15mg dose is not necessarily 1.5x as strong as a 10mg dose (potentially much stronger).

BigTrancer

I'm aware of this, but a 15mg dose would be a solid hit for me, nothing I couldn't handle. The only reason why I do 10mg hits is because;

a) I don't want to start out hard and fast and build a tolerance for any new drugs. I hit pills too hard and fast when I started out and now my tolerances are too high to make it worth having them anymore.

b) It's still a research chem! It's not fully understood yet, and until more is know about it I would rather take it easy on them.

So on a 10mg dose, for me it feels kinda like a very clean pill. It's there, but not out of control there.

IF I wanted to get fucked up I would just take acid. It's something with a fairly proven track record.

 

[Splatt]

This is probably a pretty dumb question.. but who has ever used a non digital balance to weigh powders? This one I'm looking at says it has milligram microweights, from 200mg down to 5mg weights... what could i espect for its accuracy? I do not plan on using it for RC's but I am interested in how accurate a balance is.

 

[BigTrancer]

The precision of the instrument kinda depends on the way you make the measurement, what is the smallest weight division between subdivisions on the analogue scale? If the reading is steady then the uncertainty in each mass measurement could be estimated from the order of the smallest scale subdivision. The accuracy, on the other hand, will be related to whether the balance is calibrated/tared correctly.

BT

 

[phase_dancer]

^^ Thanks BT. That definition seems to often be confusing. I remembered it by thinking of accuracy as a measure of the ability of a balance to display the actual weight, where precision is the measurement of the ability for the balance to repeatedly display the same result.

As for non-digital balances: A suggestion may be to visit your local second hand scientific supplier (yellow pages) and ask about an old non-digital mettler balance. I once saw second hand units go for $300-00 and the shop owner claimed they'd been recently serviced. This type of balance can be a bit fiddly to use, but also can be quite accurate. Older pan balance types are available second hand but might still be quite expensive.

 

[phase_dancer]

This is probably a pretty dumb question.. but who has ever used a non digital balance to weigh powders? This one I'm looking at says it has milligram microweights, from 200mg down to 5mg weights... what could i espect for its accuracy? I do not plan on using it for RC's but I am interested in how accurate a balance is.

Sorry Splatt I didn't really address your question in the last post. As for accuracy of the weights; it depends entirely whether they have been handled correctly in a non-oxygen rich environment usually also one in which air-borne particles and gases are minimal. They must never be touched by the hands unless wearing silk gloves (usually provided)

Take your weights in for certification if you like. It costs a bit, but if the balance set is cheap enough it's probably worth it. Failing that you can buy the individual weights, either certified or uncertified. They will be the same, only the certified 1 will say it really is 50.000000g or better. Of course it could say it is 50.0002, indicating 1 weight may be different to another at that level. But when purchasing, you may like to certify 1 or 2 weights, and if close to spec, take a gamble on not certifying the others.

 

[Timmmmmy]

Well the scales we use are from Off ya tree and true they might not be the most accurate scale in town. But when your measureing out 10mg of 2CI, even if it's off by 5mg(50%error), that still not a large dose

As P_D said, what happens when you "graduate" to stronger phenethylamines like 2C-Tx, 2C-E, etc? Sorry, but i gotta jump on the bandwagon here...if you can't be accurate to 1mg then either make sure you can via alternative avenues or just don't have them.

PS: i think the only way to appreciate comments like this is to have an intentionally strong dose of whatever, and then contemplate what it would feel like if you unintentionally ingested the same amount.

 

[Elicid]

If you feel silly for eye balling 2c-i, I retardedly eye balled DMT on my first time with it and packed myself a little over half a cone.... - Thats one drug you dont want to much of! The entire room turned into a cartoon like scene with bright colours and moving objects, computer cords merging into snake like beings while the computer was speaking in an alien dilalect to me, far far to intense for my little human brain to handle heh.

 

[Sllip]

As P_D said, what happens when you "graduate" to stronger phenethylamines like 2C-Tx, 2C-E, etc? Sorry, but i gotta jump on the bandwagon here...if you can't be accurate to 1mg then either make sure you can via alternative avenues or just don't have them.

I doubt I will 'graduate' to anything stronger as I don't want to be a hero and try out things till more info is known about them. And by then I'm sure people will be dosing that up for sale, in which case I'm sure it's probably only half what they claim! Plus if I do anything where doses need more accuracy then we dilute them down with a solvent.

 

[apollo]

If you feel silly for eye balling 2c-i, I retardedly eye balled DMT on my first time with it and packed myself a little over half a cone.... - Thats one drug you dont want to much of!

Glad I'm not the only one who had to learn the hard way

 

[Timmmmmy]

Sllip They're all gateway drugs...don't ya get it?!?

 

[planet dweller]

Off Ya Tree in Melb sells them for about the $700 mark. Not cheap I know, but compared to your health I think it's a good investment

I purchased scales from "off Ya Tree” last Thursday and after initially deciding they seemed a bit expensive I returned after having the same thoughts as Sllip in regard to the health of myself and friends.

We often think in strange ways, I will spend $600 / $700 for a couple of g's of cocaine for a weekend without a thought, but I baulked at spending that amount for some scales that will last me a few years.

I managed to dig up a report on them as follows but buggered if I could manage to post a picture: -




DiaGem Carat Scale, Model CT-50
Nov 21 '02

Pros
Highly accurate scale to 0.002 grams, portable, tare capability and compact.

Cons
The limit of this scale is only 10 grams.

The Bottom Line
If your work or hobby requires that you obtain accurate mass measurements of small items and you don't want to spend a fortune on an analytical balance, buy this product.

Full Review
I have used the Gram Precision DiaGem Carat Scale for 6 months now to determine the masses of meteorite specimens. Some meteorites sell for as much as $250,000.00 per gram in small quantities and the DiaGem scale is the perfect scale when accuracy is a must. This scale is accurate to 0.002 grams. It is compact, batery opperated and can mass in grams or carats, making it a valuable tool for the scientist and the gemologist alike. The scale comes with a draft shield, carrying pouch and 5 gram callibration weght. The instruction manual is easy to read and understand. There is a tare feature and a a memory feature as well. Also included is a tray for containing very small items. I have used a number of precision scales over the years and the DiaGem Carat Scale, model CT-50, is far superior to all other moderately priced scales with similar features. I highly recommend this scale to anyone who reqires accurate massing of small specimens.

 

[badbiki]

I have the above scales... You must be very careful when using them.. Sometimes adding weight wont add weight at all, then it'll jump up from nowhere.. or if you bump the messuring plate or put large mass off centre you get funny readings..

You have to zero everything, start messuring it all out and make sure values are increasing normaly.. move contents into cap (thats already been zero'd).. re-messure.. if the weight doesn't come up exactly the same as before moving to cap.. start again

Lent these to a mate the other day and he ended up messuring out some insane 35mg doses for people... So yes, not quite accurate enough.. but the user doesn't help the situation.. There is a special touch to using them, much practise is required along with being patient..

I can foresee others making the same mistakes quite easily.. be warned...

If you want to be tricky, construct a 1:10 lever and bucket system to further increase accuracy...

Organise with friends and have a 'scales' tax on all messuring requirements

 

[planet dweller]

Thanks for that badbiki, after having used them for only the last few days I have not had enough experience to comment either way. I can say however that my limited experience has been nothing other than positive.

......................experiments..............

Whilst in the middle of my reply to you badbiki I tried a little experiment, I placed the 5 gram calibration weight on the edge of the measuring plate at N, S ,E and W positions rather than the centre (for those that haven't seen this scale the measuring plate is circular and approximately 40mm across, it appears to be supported by a small post in the middle).

Undertaking this exercise I was able to put the accuracy of the scale out by + or - 0.002, it did however take at least 10 off centre weighings to produce the fault.

Once calibrated again and weighing in the centre I was obtaining readings that varied from say 0.000 to 0.002, if I understand correctly a scale that has a 0.002 accuracy would do that.

Does anyone else have experience with these scales?

 

[planet dweller]

There is another thread running about the same topic and one of the moderators had this to say (he was as you can see getting a little bit frustrated with his charges):-




This forum is only going to give out accurate and safe information.

The only acceptable means of using things like 2C-E, 2C-P, 5-MeO-DMT, and other really potent chemicals is a scale accurate to one-milligram (.001) for weighing out individual dosages. And that goes for most of these pure psychedelics you guys are mentioning.

A scale accurate to two-milligrams (.002) is acceptable for weighing individual dosages of weaker psychedelics, but for ones like 5-MeO-AMT and even 2C-E...one should weigh out 50mg or so at a time, and disolve that in water.

As for any other scale (.010 and worse); they are not acceptable for weighing individual dosages of any psychedelics except some of the weeaker ones like BDB, DXM, ibogaine, MBDB, methylone, and mescaline. The only acceptable use is for weighing out large quantities like one-gram at a time, and then using volumetric measurement.

No other means are safe and acceptable. I'll leave this open to see where it goes, but I'm not going to allow people to post unsafe methods such as eyeballing and using .01 scales for weighing out individual dosages.

I'll also post a PM I wrote to someone else a few nights ago who was asking me the same question. It's has some (what I think) is good information.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are some reckless and uninformed people that will tell you to eyeball it, or use the 'graph paper" method, or such and such. But no matter what anybody says, these methods are not safe or accurate and I will not allow bad advice to flourish on the forum. The crystal size, and general volume, of different chemicals not only vary, but different batches of the same chemical will also vary in volume and/or crystal size! It's not always a purity issue, but rather the speed in which something is crystalized at, and the solvent used to crystalize it.

With 2C-B, 2C-E, 2C-I, 2C-T-2, 2C-T-4, ethocin, iprocin, 5-MeO-DiPT, 5-MeO-DMT and many, many more that I just have not tried yet myself (like 2C-P, 2C-T-21, the DOx series, the Ganesha series, 5-MeO-alpha-MT, 5-MeO-MiPT, and countless others); I can tell you that every single milligram, and less than a milligram with some of them like LSD or DOB, will make a noticable difference in the intensity.

Some personal examples...

At 8mg, 5-MeO-DMT gives me the most blissful and meaningful trips one can imagine, or at least it has twice now. But at 10mg, I had a black out and don't remember a thing. Same thing happened to my girlfriend. So a milligram (.001g) scale is a must if you want to be as safe as possible. One really need a scale accurate to .001 for all pure psychedelic compounds except maybe ones active only at 100mg (.1g) or so, or for materials that are active at less than 3mg like many of the DOx members, or LSD.

Another is 2C-E. 16mg was ungodly intense. Then I scaled it up to 20mg, and the trip was TWICE as intense. I'm not exageratting and both times the material was accurately weighed. I even have a reference weight set to double check my scale. It contains 1mg, 2mg, 5mg, 10mg, 50mg, 100mg, 500mg, 1g, 5g, 10g, and 20g. And the scale is always accurate to the "T" (whatever that means) so I am confident when I weigh somethign out that I am taking what I think I am.

Milligram scales (good ones) are around $1000, but you can get away with (I manage to) a scale accurate to two-milligrams (.002) if you are willing to use volumetric measurements for some of the more potent compounds. I use a Tanita-1210 and you can find these on ebay for $150.

Man, take my word. If you are going to play around with pure psychedelic compounds active at 50mg or less, then you need to buy a scale like this. It's simply stupid and irresponsible not too. And if you had the money to buy these chemicals, then you can come up with the money for a special device that will allow you to use such things in the safest manner possible.

Please use your brain and heed the words of an experienced individual who has done a lot of experimentation. Remember, a scale accurate to .001 (one-milligram) means that a pile of powder that reads .008g or 8mg could really be 7mg or 9mg. A scales "accuracy" rating really is refering to how much the scale could be "off by" or accurate to. A scale accurate to 1mg can be +/- 1mg each time you use it.

My Tanita 1210 is accurate to .002g (2mg) so when I have a pile of powder that reads, say, .014g (14mg) is could really be 12mg or 16mg. For this reason; when I am working with a potent drug like 2C-E I usually weigh out 50mg and add it to 50ml of water. And I dose it with a syringe. That way it's much more accurate than if I just weighed me out a single 14mg dosage. Do you understand? I'll be happy to clarify if not.

If you can't afford a .001g or .002g scale, you can probably find a scale accurate to .01g, which is 10mg, for $60/new or less on ebay. This will allow you to weigh out, say, 200mg and it will only "be off" by 10mg or so. This is acceptable if you plan on weighing out at least 100mg or more at a time and adding that to water or alcohol. It's better than nothing.

But it is not acceptable for weighing out single dosages of potent materials because it can be off up to 10mg! Taking an extra 10mg of 2C-E would make a HUGE difference. Again, 4mg doubled the effects! 2C-E and many other materials have weird dose/response curves.

Now if you weight out 100mg with a .01 scale, then it will only be off 10mg in either direction. So a dose from a solution made with 100ml of water would only be off by 10%. So if you tried to take 10mg from the solution, you might have 9mg or 11mg. There is a big difference between 9mg and 11mg but it is better then eyeballing!

But I don't know. If you are serious about experimenting with exotic psychedelics, then invest the money in the scale. If you are just looking for a high, then stick with mushrooms, LSD, DMT, or mescaline. Some psychedelic which is known to be safe. Leave the odd-ball psychedelics to the oddballs like me who are willing to be guinea pigs.

Feel free to ask for any further help.

Good luck

MGS



The scale mentioned above is avaliable via a Sydney web site and if I understand the guidelines correctly I can not post the site. If anyone is interested just send me a PM and I will pass it on.