"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

indelibleface

indelibleface

Bluelight Crew
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This statement is plastered somewhere on the wall in most businesses in America. To what extent can someone be refused service, and does there need to be a stated reason?

I ask because when I was shopping for Halloween at one of those temporary Halloween stores in Los Angeles, I was asked to leave by management. We talked outside for a minute, and the conversation went something like this:

Her: "I would like to ask that you do not shop here. You have to leave."

Me: "Excuse me? Wait, do you work here?"

Her: "Yes, I'm the manager."

Me: "I don't understand. What is wrong?"

Her: "I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. I would prefer it if you didn't shop here. I have a feeling about you. There are other Halloween stores in the area that you can shop at."

Me: "Wait, again I don't understand. I was browsing for a Halloween costume, like everyone else here. What did I do wrong?"

Her: "You didn't do anything wrong. It's just a feeling I have."

Me: "Do you do this to a lot of shoppers at your store?"

Her: "Some."

Me: "I think it would be polite of you to tell me what you think I am doing wrong."

Her: "You aren't doing anything wrong. Again, it's just a feeling. You can't shop here though."



I'm going back on Monday when the mall management office is open to file a complaint, but in general, I'm wondering to what extent they can refuse service. I'm assuming that I might have looked suspicious to someone extremely paranoid--I wasn't purchasing anything, looking around the store, and periodically texting a friend of mine. But the fact is that I wasn't doing anything wrong, and doing exactly what many other shoppers were doing. Can they simply kick anyone out for whatever reason?

Say I was in there with a boyfriend (I'm a male), and we were holding hands. Could they kick us out and not tell us why, even though the concealed reason was that we were gay? Obviously that's not the case here, but the question is this: is a business required to explain why they are kicking someone out of their store? If not, doesn't this give businesses a free-for-all on kicking anyone out of their store that they simply don't like? Say there was some kind of discriminatory reason for this (and I'm not saying there was), do they have to explain that to you?

This is just so infuriating. :X
 
Assuming you weren't high or looked like a scary-black-man(tm), yeah it was the boyfriend. Most people would have handled you two with kid gloves to avoid appearing politically incorrect.

It's a shame but not much you can do about it unless he made specific remarks.
 
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

That statement means what it says and no, they DON'T need a reason. Being gay is, more often than not, always a factor. That statement protects the store from having to tell you that.

I know this as a fact, My wife and i were in a store and we witnessed a gay couple being ask to leave. They left and i asked "why did they have to leave?"
His Exact words shocked me, "We don't need any fags in here."

Needless to say we left as well and what i told him i won't post here, or at all.
I do feel bad for you as i did the other guys then.
 
The manager was clearly in the wrong, but I do not know how far in the wrong. I hope someone else chimes in if this is discrimination.

The Better Business Bureau should hear about this and may be able to provide you with advice. Their information can be found here and you can file a complaint online. I linked you right to the page that handles your area.

I'm really not sure if you can hit them in the courts for this one, but you can hit them in the pocketbook. Ask your friends and family not to shop there for starters. Facebook group called "We Won't Shop at XYZ Company because they kicked a pair of nice guys holding hands out on Halloween" maybe? ;)

You can also find out if the business or its owners supported Proposition 8 here, which would not in itself evidence a pattern of discrimination - but if you could get a bunch of men holding hands a respectful protest distance away (check your local laws) you might be able to at least draw business to stores that will not harass you for engaging in non-disruptive behavior.
 
Could they kick us out and not tell us why, even though the concealed reason was that we were gay? Obviously that's not the case here, but the question is this
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I don't think he got kicked out for having a boyfriend with him.
 
Has nobody heard of the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964? It gives people:

"full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
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They cannot refuse service to a certain class of people. Most states have expanded the class of persons to include those with a political affiliation, sexual preferences etc. However, the courts have found that businesses can refuse when they have a non-arbitrary reason. For example, the courts found that it's not unconstitutional for a restaurant to refuse service to a motorcycle club. The genuine reason was their interest to avoid fights between rival clubs.

In your case it seems like the reason of "having a bad feeling" clearly fits within the arbitrary category. They definitely have to have a good reason to tell you to get out of their business when it's clearly open to the public. I think you have a genuine complaint here. I would, honestly, take it to the Attorney General office.

Your state seems to provide particularly good protection due to a highly publicized case leading to The Unruh Civil Rights Act.

This link is probably where you want to start.

In your hypothetical, no, they still can't just kick you out for no reason. Additionally, if they informed you of their concealed reason it would be unconstitutional as well.

Good luck with everything. Nobody should have to deal with the embarrassment of being kicked out of a store for giving someone who works there "a feeling" (what does that even mean?). I hope you are able to make a change. Just going in and making a complaint will probably stop any future discriminatory practices as such.
 
AR (or other legal eagles): with respect to Unruh, in your opinion, would it be best for the OP to first write to the Attorney General, or to first write a DFEH complaint? When I did basic intake on semi-similar cases (mostly denial of service/noncompliance with federal and state safety standards for mobility impaired people) one of the first steps would be the DFEH complaint.

T: how hard you want to fight this is up to you. Perhaps the ACLU might be of help to you, even providing you with pro bono representation?

ACLU of Southern California Main

ACLU of Southern California Intake Form

If there is a way for you to find out (perhaps through the BBB) if others have complained of similar discriminatory treatment in that store, there is certainly power in numbers.
 
The manager said the reason for refusing service was because of a feeling about the shopper. Wouldn't the burden of proof be on the shopper to establish that service was denied on the basis of race, color, religion, or national origin? Because otherwise those people are effectively exonerated from being denied service to anyplace that wants to legally reserve that right. That doesn't seem fair either.
 
I'm not sure Mp. This case is sort of bizarre because there isn't really any of your typical discrimination claims under class of person areas. Again, that's not to say he doesn't have a valid complaint as I do believe what the store allegedly did is illegal and is backed up by case law. If I were him I would eventally call both and/or either the DFEH or the Attorney General office and ask them who they think is best fit to deal with this issue.

I think your BBB suggestion is the best first step. The BBB provides a search function of companies for consumers to check out if there have been any other complaints. Plus, you can file a complaint easily online.

http://www.la.bbb.org/

Keep us updated Inedible. :)
 
Yes, it was a hypothetical--I wasn't kicked out for being gay (as far as I know). I was there alone. There was absolutely no stated reason.

I'm going to simply complain to the mall management today. I don't really care significantly enough to take it any further than that. It was completely rude and disturbing that it happened, but it was just a crappy little Halloween store. It's not worth taking it any further than filing a complaint. I would love to rub the cold iron fist of the law in that manager's face for this, but whatever--I'm mostly over it.

But thank you, everyone. I appreciate the suggestions. :)

AmorRoark said:
I think your BBB suggestion is the best first step. The BBB provides a search function of companies for consumers to check out if there have been any other complaints. Plus, you can file a complaint easily online.

http://www.la.bbb.org/
Click to expand...

I'll check this out. Thank you.
 
AfterGlow said:
The manager said the reason for refusing service was because of a feeling about the shopper. Wouldn't the burden of proof be on the shopper to establish that service was denied on the basis of race, color, religion, or national origin? Because otherwise those people are effectively exonerated from being denied service to anyplace that wants to legally reserve that right. That doesn't seem fair either.
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They cannot discriminate on the bases of those which you have listed AND cannot discriminate for an arbitrary reason having a "feeling" about someone is definitely arbitrary and illegal.

Inedible - Good! I'm glad you're going to go complain to the management. I hope you complain on the BBB too. I kinda tooled around on that site and it really is interesting seeing the grading system. Cheers! :D
 
Has nobody heard of the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964? It gives people:

Quote:
"full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
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That is pertaining to public places. IE: Library / School / Municipal Building / Public Pool, etc etc etc. A person or persons always has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason in a privately owned / operated situation. From my point of view, this was a Halloween stand. Probably not govt funded or operated or run. Making it privately owned / operated. Which means... They do have the right. No one can tell you who you can do business with. No one can tell you who you cant do business with. It may not make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but legally I believe they are in the clear. Further, if you dont like the way they treated you, dont give them your business and tell a friend. Take the proprietors advice, and give your money to someone else.
 
I'm going to try my best not to get rude but I don't understand why people can't do a minimal amount of research before making a somewhat lengthy WRONG response.

First of all, the 'public places' standard extends way further than you're suggesting. Under Title II of the Civil Rights Act:

Outlawed discrimination in hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters, and all other public accommodations engaged in interstate commerce; exempted private clubs without defining the term "private."
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Basically, one has to make a commerce clause (the business is engaged in interstate commerce) argument under the Civil Rights Act. He could, but he doesn't even need to go that far...

It's clear this person is in California. Under the Uriah Act which I LINKED above California has strict prohibition against discrimination

The Unruh Civil Rights Act (76), or Unruh Act, as discussed in the housing chapter of this publication, applies to all business establishments of every kind whatsoever which provide services, goods, or accommodations to the public. Businesses subject to the Unruh Act include bookstores, gymnasiums, shopping centers, mobile home parks, bars and restaurants, schools, medical and dental offices, hotels and motels, and condominium homeowners associations.

The Unruh Act prohibits all types of arbitrary discrimination, and not just discrimination based on sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, age, disability or medical condition. (78) The Unruh Act also prohibits discrimination based on personal characteristics, geographical origin, physical attributes, and individual beliefs. For example, the arbitrary exclusion of individuals from a restaurant based on their sexual orientation is prohibited.
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Clearly, he fits within this Act's prohibited class of persons who do not deserve to be discriminated against (basically everybody).

Here's the link, again.
 
dude, just don't shop. there. chances are what he did was illegal. the chances of you being able to prove that are much slimmer.
 
^ Yeah, I talked to my brother-in-law who works for the BBB this Thanksgiving and he said most likely little would be done. But you would get to post your story on the website which may deter future shoppers in the least. :)
 
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