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  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

We (probably) live in a simulation

I am really curious where y'all gonna go with this, whether or not you choose to answer my question. Let's peak the shell for a sec, let's rite, let's say we just discovered that this planet and everything we know it's a major testing ground for an upcoming species. Let's say this. Let's also see what would the architects do in this scenario? Will they have a positive/negative or a balanced reaction? In case you aren't familiar with ''Westworld'', it's a HBO original that explores this shit. It explores that we are on a table and people are playing chess with us and it's a race to something we want but don't want, to something that that it's its.. phuu

haha, it's a sort of thing like a how can I say a big thing right. It's logical, a big fuckin thing. But it's a useless race with no start/ending. If we think simulationi n terms of cars I think? yeah so if we think in terms of cars we're just drifting along canyons, to nowhere. So bottom line, my previous post really said something that most people don't say when they hear ''Simulation'', it said that life's pointless and we want to make something out of it so by doing so we spend our time with various activities.
 
^ Westworld is a great show indeed, although the unusual thing about the Westworld scenario is that the inhabitants of the simulation are, apparently, on par intellectually or even exceeding the intellect of their creators. While this could happen, even without a requirement for AI, just through keeping real live humans in a carefully orchestrated Truman Show type bubble, it's probably one of the lower probability scenarios when it comes to simulated realities as the architects of any reality simulation would most likely have created a far larger quantity of "lower fidelity" realities inhabited by "lesser" beings (case in point, humanity and all the video games we've ever created - these are all low fidelity "simulations", in a sense, but no video game character has any hope of ever breaking out of their enclosed universe).

Of course, the Westworld scenario is appealing because if it is there's a higher reality a lot closer than we might think - and we have a non-zero chance of finding a way to access it. We'll never truly know if our own reality is something like this without trying to escape it though, and therefore, IMO, we should continue to try to live as if we might find a way to break out of the simulation, keep pushing forward with science and our understanding of the cosmos in the hope that we'll one day work out a way to break the laws of thermodynamics, reverse the flow of entropy, and/or open a portal to another universe, or simply into the Bulk.

I was just reading about Boltzmann Brains the other day and realised that this is essentially an older version of the Simulation Argument, with many parallels to what I was saying earlier - that the Simulation Argument does not require computers or advanced technology.

Just to nutshell what I gather so far - the emergence of complex universes where entropy appears to be very low despite the fact that entropy should generally always increase is presumably a result of brief localised quantum fluctuations. The kind of fluctuation that spawns an entire universe, compared to fluctuations that spawn smaller things (smaller universes? or just other random shit), is likely quite rare - but on timescales approaching infinity, or at the very least, truly cosmological timescales, these fluctuations become more likely. Over the course of eternity, at least 1 such fluctuation has obviously occurred to spawn our universe. However, no matter how likely it is for this to happen, smaller things are overwhelmingly more likely to emerge from the incessant vacuum flux of empty space. For that reason...
Wikipedia said:
The Boltzmann brain argument suggests that it is more likely for a single brain to spontaneously and briefly form in a void (complete with a false memory of having existed in our universe) than it is for our universe to have come about in the way modern science thinks it actually did.

Ergo, the quantity of disembodied brains floating in the multidimensional substrate of eternity, or at least, the region of it that spawned our own reality, that are simply imagining entire realities is vastly larger than the number of actual realities (again - whatever that means!).

I might be butchering that explanation somewhat, but I think it's close enough. Evidently also the Boltzmann brain argument was originally an attempt at reductio ad absurdum, and obviously it does a good job at reducing any attempts to think about what is really real to the level of absurdity. But then, that's not hard to do, reality is in many ways pretty absurd, and it could be so absurd that everything we think we understand about logical reasoning is, in actual fact, just wrong, a deliberate experiment to run a universe based on weird logic, where 2+2 actually equals 5 but omniscient script injections continually subvert the thinking of every conscious entity within it to think that 2+2 actually equals 4.
 
Wow, am too tired to read all of that but I saw those 2 numbers and and yeah. Geez, but you're right though. Belive me, it's beyond that, we have to break the hypersphere because that's what might actually be. It might not be anything at all and the humans we know they might all be dead and here's when that shit what was called, uhmmmmm

nhmm

say it uhm.... hypercube, there's ya go. So this simulation might as well be a hypercube. Same as all galaxies out there might be Milky Way in the past.
 
Sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me. Artificial intelligence has nothing to do with humans and I don't know why anyone would ever associate the two, but to each his own

I'd rather look at intelligence as it relates to the spiritual realm because that could show us how humans and machines interact in different dimensions. I think in my head one time I saw it as IA; intelligent art [mechanics]
 
The issues I always arrive at with simulation theory are pretty basic. First, the lack of purpose. In our world we have purpose both in the moment and in the all encompassing story we believe ourselves to be part of. In a simulation our purpose is specifically for observation, much like the various God beliefs we are simply adding another one with a new set of rules and our existence is now purposed by others yet again. Once we discover we are a simulation we become disassociated with our existence and our observation is flawed so there is no reason to continue running the simulation. Just like our belief of disbelief in a god type figure doesn't alter the actual events we experience, neither does belief in a simulation theory, it does however change how you interpret your experience and you may miss more of reality due to a new confirmation bias.

Secondly the observable universe seems to scale upward from the tiny toward the large. In my own body 25 billion cells and their entourage of over 100 trillion other organisms combine to create what my simpleton ego calls "me". They work endlessly and use the vast majority of my brains capacity to conduct their regular business of life. From the massively complex machine my body is, about 200 inputs from my brain make up the full input of my consciousness. I am created by the much larger human brain with its 4 million inputs per second being fed information from the 25 billion host cells that are specifically designed as sensors. We arise from specific DNA blueprints carried through the entire body.

We are diverse and yet organized into a powerful cellular collective. We are building upward not downward, our society is an obvious simple extension of the cellular level of cooperation taken up to small tribes and countries. Life has achieved success through organized cooperation. We did not create and hand down DNA to our cells. The obvious observation is that life has a design process that our cells, or their precursours, are aware of but not our consciousness.

If I were to subscribe to a belief it would be from my personal observation that we are all pushing the edges of our own universe in as many ways as we can to see which direction life will turn next. Like waves relentlessly attacking beaches until land gives way we keep pressing forward in every field at once looking for new results. I believe we need to respect ourselves and the unique instance of life we have awoke to find ourselves in and any theory that lets you believe you don't need to do anything because it's only a shadow world is just silly. We must always consider ourselves to be the guides of our purpose or we will die like lemmings. We shouldnt allow horrific environmental damage on the grounds that we are probably just a simulation or sayings like "let God sort them out".

What you believe sets your heading for the day. Remember in the real world you're hurtling through space on a rock chasing a star looking for a way to jump to another rock, of the few that try some may succeed.
 
Well, I think it's probably our souls that control our existence. If you want to take this simulation idea a step further you could argue that the soul is a type of machine but really a machine and a soul seem like the same thing to my simple mind

Like a will is actually a person but their soul controls their fate, if that makes sense

It does not as it forgets that your mind create your soul or ego that is you.

You are correct in calling your souls a machine. A machine needs a handler and that is your mind, consciousness and soul.

What does your machine soul do?

Regards
DL
 
^ What an absolutely garbled nonsense post you have just made, sorry maybe I should hold my tongue but could you be a little more vague please, and define the terms you are using a little bit less, I'd like to spend more time trying to extract meaning from gibberish.
 
^ What an absolutely garbled nonsense post you have just made, sorry maybe I should hold my tongue but could you be a little more vague please, and define the terms you are using a little bit less, I'd like to spend more time trying to extract meaning from gibberish.

That is why I wanted to clear up the definitions of words like soul, that have strange definitions.

Perhaps our friend will oblige.

Regards
DL
 
In my worldview "souls", working from the definition that they are some unique attributes of an individual, living human that disspear upon death, could reasonably be viewed as the set of electrochemical conditions in the nerves sufficient to self-sustain and animate the body. Maybe also the connectivity map of the brain in question. Simple terms, the soul is the software, the brain is the hardware, and the mind is the emergent property produced by the combination of the two.

Theoretically, given such a set of conditions captured with suffcient accuracy, if you had the ability to duplicate those across people, each "person" would initially be indistinguishable, with the same habits, self-image, memories, tics, etc. but they would nevertheless diverge as differences in experience accumulate.
 
^ Nice definition. Yeah, very true. I think those conditions you describe which are practically impossible (at least today, as far as we know) but presumably not theoretically impossible given sufficiently advanced technology, are a great illustration of the illusory nature of the self. ie, if we were to switch bodies, and inherit all the memories of the new body, and leave behind all our old memories in the old body and also inherit the exact neural architecture that has developed over the lifetime, experience and genetics of that body, such that we 100% believed that we were that person who we had just swapped with... then what would be the difference? Obviously, there would be none. Ergo, the self, as something separate from the body, mind, memories, experiences, tendencies, preferences, or whatever nouns one wants to use to describe what it is to be one person rather than another person - is in fact an entirely illusory concept - IMO. The Swampman thought experiment also illustrates this point well.
 
if we were to switch bodies, and inherit all the memories of the new body,

Given what we know about the physical encoding of memories in the conections of the brain, I don't believe that to be possible in most cases. Brains are like fingerprints, they're all unique... what happens if the connectivity mismatches between the two brains? If there's a neuron at some coordinates in brain A that is not present in brain B how do you deal with it?

What happens if you take the brain of a deafblind quadrapalegic and stick it into a healthy person? A man's mind into a child's body? A man'smind in a woman's body? How about a dog's mind in a man's body?

What happens if someone comes up with a novel set of initial conditions to make the human brain do non-brain things, even? Like, could you fashion a soul de novo and have it "run" on a brain?

How about a combination of two different brain states? The left brain of one person, right of another?

Shit, I have enought trouble trying to figure out what happens between falling asleep and wakefulness. Dr Moreau I am not.
 
Oh yeah I don't disagree, that's kind of the point I was trying to make although I maybe didn't word it very well, that it's not possible to transplant a mind, or "soul" if you like, without effectively transplanting the brain. I do think with sufficient technology it may be possible to write a mind into a brain, effectively overwriting whatever native mind resides there, by way of atom-perfect rewiring of the neuronal architecture by some kind of super-advanced nanomachines or other technology, but by the time this was possible it would presumably still be easier just to do a straight brain transplant - or 3D print a brand new brain to mirror the original - or simply dispense with the biological substrate entirely and replace the brain with an artificial solid state storage device, a la Altered Carbon and countless other sci-fi since the dawn of the age of computers.
 
replace the brain with an artificial solid state storage device, a la Altered Carbon and countless other sci-fi since the dawn of the age of computers.

Ooh, Homo silico has a nice ring to it, dontcha think?
 
For sure I'm not as smart as a lot of people, but I know without a doubt in my mind that I've had times where I didn't have access to my brain. I mean, in times where I was extremely scared and a few dozen times when I've been spiritually absent from the world, even as a child

I don't put faith in the brain at all. Actually I'd say your brain puts strain on you and is the cause of most of your pain. Well my pain at least

I've seen my spiritual self, and there's no brain there. I have to admit, it would be cool to see a brain there ;)
 
Personally I find simulation theory drier than a popcorn fart. It's like reading Douglas Adams, Jose Borges, or Italo Calvino, all cold logic and no interpersonal emotion. I'd rather read Brideshead Revisited in Esperanto than read Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy again.

Either way, you might make more money as a cult leader, but it's a lot more fun to be a cult follower.
 
Sacrilege! Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is a classic.

Also...
Gormur said:
For sure I'm not as smart as a lot of people, but I know without a doubt in my mind that I've had times where I didn't have access to my brain.
I'm not as smart as a lot of people either, but I'm sure we are both in actual fact smarter than a lot of people too. But in the most polite way possible, this sentence is not one of the smarter ones you've typed. ;)

Gormur said:
your brain puts strain on you and is the cause of most of your pain.
For sure, the brain is a huge metabolic drain, consuming a huge amount of energy relative to any other organ, and also serves as an exponential amplifier of the kinds of suffering it is possible to experience, in fact there are whole extra dimensions and types and degrees of suffering that having a brain facilitates, that are simply not of any concern at all to say, a tree, or a rock.
 
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Hitchiker movie is more gonzo than the book, its adds a Terry Gilliam type feel that I like that doesn't come across in the book, at least in my reading.
 
Also...
I'm not as smart as a lot of people either, but I'm sure we are both in actual fact smarter than a lot of people too. But in the most polite way possible, this sentence is not one of the smarter ones you've typed. ;)
How so? The mind isn't necessarily in the brain. Actually, a mind isn't even necessary
 
Necessary for what?

The brain is the destination organ for all sensory input from anything your body experiences in this physical world, as well as the origin organ for the motor instructions issued via your nervous system to any other part of the body that you use to interact with this physical world.

Whether or not your mind is located in the brain, your brain is necessary both to animate your body and interpret the data from your sensory organs. If you are saying that a mind - existing somehow ethereally, uncoupled from a brain - could somehow animate a body with an empty, brainless skull, or receive sense data from the eyes, ears, or any other part of this same brainless body, I would have to respectfully disagree with you, on the basis that once the brain stops functioning the body usually does too, and that there has never been a human being lacking a functioning brain - whether this is a result of major head injury, or an unfortunate genetic abnormality - who is still capable of doing any of these things.


EDIT - I just realised you said "a MIND isn't even necessary", not "a brain isn't even necessary", which seemed like the more logical reading of the sentiment I thought you were trying to express. Now I'm even more confused about what you meant.
 
It's not that important really. I just meant that we don't need a mind. We might need it to function in society or to move around, but not to breathe

In my view, this thread could be called the mind is a simulation whereby I'd be inclined to agree
 
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