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History Was America founded on Christianity?

And neither does the claim that "the United States was founded on christian values." So attempting to invoke the "legal precedent" issue is completely without merit.
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Uhmm...no. Becuase there is a document that does have legal precedent, i.e. the first amendment, which I did mention previously.

Exactly where have you learned about Liberalism to have arrived at such a statement?
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I was being fecitious. Didn't you catch the smiley?

:)
 
BlueAdonis said:
Just so you guys don't get confused, I'm about to leave class in 5 minutes and that smoke you're about to see isn't me sending you best wishes, it's just my car's exhaust.
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I was wondering why it looked like the typical piss-off signal.
 
Guys, the original title of the thread was not "Is America a Christian nation," the title of the thread was "The US was or was not founded as a Christian nation." To that extent, this treaty, as well as the federalist papers and writings of the founders are all relevent. The question is not whether or not the nation is now or has ever been Christian, but whether, based on the writings and policies of our founding fathers and first presidents, one could consider America as being founded as a Christian nation. To this extent, the question of whether the treaty quotes is legally binding, or whether the Federalist papers are considered legal precedent is completely and utterly irrelevent to the discussion.

That being said, the first amendment is very clear on this subject: The United States is not, has not been, and never will be a Christian nation, because our government "shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Any attempt, at any time since the ratification of the constitution and until the dissolution of the Republic, to declare the United States a "Christian nation" is quite clearly unconstitutional and therefore completely invalid and without any legal basis or precedent.

It is perfectly fair to say that the majority of our population is made up of Christians, but as a nation is defined by its government, and our government is, by the very document that created it and grants it authority and legitimacy, prohibited from taking any stance on religion pro or con, then ours cannot be a Christian nation.

This is, in the words of Abraham Lincoln, a nation "of the people, by the people, and for the people." To declare that this is a nation of any religion is to prevent this from being a nation of, by, or for any citizens who do not follow that religion, and dishonors the very principles on which our nation was founded.

The only people who claim that this is a Christian nation are those who are either completely ignorant of the Constitution and the founding principles of this country, or those who have wet dreams about turning America into a western version of Iran so that they can gain more power.
 
Hyperion said:
Guys, the original title of the thread was not "Is America a Christian nation," the title of the thread was "The US was or was not founded as a Christian nation." To that extent, this treaty, as well as the federalist papers and writings of the founders are all relevent. The question is not whether or not the nation is now or has ever been Christian, but whether, based on the writings and policies of our founding fathers and first presidents, one could consider America as being founded as a Christian nation. To this extent, the question of whether the treaty quotes is legally binding, or whether the Federalist papers are considered legal precedent is completely and utterly irrelevent to the discussion.

That being said, the first amendment is very clear on this subject: The United States is not, has not been, and never will be a Christian nation, because our government "shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Any attempt, at any time since the ratification of the constitution and until the dissolution of the Republic, to declare the United States a "Christian nation" is quite clearly unconstitutional and therefore completely invalid and without any legal basis or precedent.

It is perfectly fair to say that the majority of our population is made up of Christians, but as a nation is defined by its government, and our government is, by the very document that created it and grants it authority and legitimacy, prohibited from taking any stance on religion pro or con, then ours cannot be a Christian nation.

This is, in the words of Abraham Lincoln, a nation "of the people, by the people, and for the people." To declare that this is a nation of any religion is to prevent this from being a nation of, by, or for any citizens who do not follow that religion, and dishonors the very principles on which our nation was founded.

The only people who claim that this is a Christian nation are those who are either completely ignorant of the Constitution and the founding principles of this country, or those who have wet dreams about turning America into a western version of Iran so that they can gain more power.
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Excellent post. Bravo.
 
gloggawogga said:
Uhmm...no. Becuase there is a document that does have legal precedent, i.e. the first amendment, which I did mention previously.
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
— The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

But that bears freedom of expression of the individual, and the rights of said expression in groups. But it does not apply to the government adapting any such positions, nor does it show any form of favoritism of christianity from government.

Besides, given the current environment, lack respect for US tradition, and desire to redefine the nature of the United States, I would not be surprised if this current administration suspended such "inconvenient" Constitutional amendments.

After all, they do have a "mandate" n' all. 8)

For more First Amendment fun, visit: FirstAmendmentCenter.org ;)


gloggawogga said:
I was being fecitious. Didn't you catch the smiley?

:)
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It's a hot-button topic, and I am taking my 2005 New Years resolution to heart. =D
 
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no, the US was not founded as a christian nation. actually, the idea that it was seems to be more anti-red scare hullabaloo from the middle part of the 20th century.

sohi - no one is stopping you from linking to the posts you keep talking about.
 
michael said:
no, the US was not founded as a christian nation. actually, the idea that it was seems to be more anti-red scare hullabaloo from the middle part of the 20th century.
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You mean around the same time we were being mis-led by the former Nazi spies, whom, we were using for operations against the Soviet Union? Oh, go figure that one....
 
If we look at the use of symbols in the US government (as incorporated from the founding days of the United States), it becomes obvious that there is a strong Freemason influence.

That was some rather interesting implications if we are going to argue about what the rightful religious values upon which this nation was founded on.

And it is interesting to point out that, since according to the web site Cuttingedge.org has reveiled that the Freemasons were actually a Satanic cult:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/fmcorner.html
(just go down the page).

And they absolutely prove it right here:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/free11.html


So, the argument should not be about the United States being founded on christian princibles (and that we need to go back to them), but rather, the United States being founded on the princibles of the freemasons and that we need to promote ideals of the freemasons.

;)
 
^^^^No, cause the damn map is on the damn back! Damnit IV, don't you know you can't use a copy machine on the back of Federal documents?
 
I love learning about history. :)

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, – as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, – and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
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- Treaty between USA and Libya, signed at Tripoli, November 4, 1796, and at Algiers January 3, 1797. Proclaimed by George Washington, the first President of the United States, June 10, 1797

Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?
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- John Adams, second President of the USA

I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.
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- Thomas Jefferson, third President of the USA, letter to William Short

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.
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- James Madison, fourth President of the USA

Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).
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- Thomas Paine, American revolutionary philosopher

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion ... has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble.
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- Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by Franklin to Exra Stiles March 9, 1790

David Frost: Say is this still a Christian Country?
Billy Graham: No! We're not a Christian Country. We've never been a Christian Country. We're a secular Country, by our constitution. In which Christians live and which many Christians have a voice. But we're not a Christian Country.

- Dr Billy Graham is an American evangelist and associate of US presidents; Sir David Frost is a British interviewer
 
What was the point of this thread? Good quote by the 2nd president though, wasn't that the reason alot of Christian's left England, being forced to bow down to certain popes and such?
 
No they left England in search of "religious freedom". What that really means is that England was becoming more and more tolerant as time went on and and these christians didn't like it because they wanted to force their beliefs on others.

We're taught in school about how the pilgrims wanted a place free of oppression. That's true but incomplete: they wanted a place where they could become the oppressors!
 
I have posted twice as many quotes on thsi board from some of these same men, and MANY others that counter the quotes in this thread. Micael and i have gone over this a thousand times, and to be honest, there are quotes to prove both sides of the story. That is why you have to look at more than the quotes! ANy of you know that many states in the those days actually pronounced Jesus as Lord and savior in ther state doctrine? There is so much more to this than these few same quotes that every liberal uses. I have countered this position so many times it isnt worth me doing it anymjore. Just know there are two sides to the story.

Anyone remember mahan atma? He also agrees with me on this and has proved his and my point of view on this board as well in the past.
 
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