Droppersneck
Bluelighter
Qft, and it should be ‘the CIA estimates’
Wars, Invasions, & Imperialism Thread v. Ukraine & Russia
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But Russia didn't hold the referendum, Ukraine did.
The results of the referendum were binding and all of Ukraine agreed to it. The reason why they did (in my opinion) is that they expected the result to somehow be rigged (maybe with the help of the CIA) to show that Ukranians of the Crimea wanted to remain part of Ukraine. But the voting didn't go that way.
The election was legal. And... in the chance that it wasn't... that's when you call in international observers to re-do the election. You (the USA) don't start planting a defense shield right on Russia's doorstep.
You have to look at this from Russia's perspective. And before you accuse me of being pro-Russia, I'm not. I'm just talking realpolitik, as in political science. Prior to the war, the USA was placing weapons closer and closer to Russia's border, threatening its security. Then part of Ukraine voted to separate, and the CIA/USA blocked its ratification while declaring the referendum bogus and moving in its troops before any third party could validate that the voting was rigged. This + the weapons build up prior to the voting was all a security threat to Russia.
Going back to my Canada/USA analogy... imagine if, in response to the legal referendum, an outside country like, say, Britain, decided "the voting was bogus, we're going to send our troops into Alberta and prevent the USA from annexing that part of Canada. We're deciding!" instead of letting the UN + international community come up with a solution, like a re-do of the voting process but with international security watching it instead.
The reasons we are being told for the war by the western powers are lies. It was 100% preventable. But like most western imperialism, they want to expand and expand. Russia uses a completely different financial system than the western world. Its old-world oligarchs are completely different than ours. They don't have to play our game in order to exist. So naturally, the NATO powers and Five Eyes nations don't like this, so they are taking the opportunity to surround Russia and shove it out of the new economic system they're trying to build, all while denying Russia any semblance of security.
NATO created this security dilemma. It factually created this problem, and the USA is the ring leader. As usual.
And now... BRICS has been created in response to what the West is doing, to undermine the U.S. dollar and stop this whole western bloc from continuing to play chess with the world. It's a real threat because OPEC is considering endorsing their plan. If the U.S. dollar stops being the primary oil currency, the western powers will shit themselves and probably create World War 3.
gordonliddy
Bluelighter
You're wasting your time.
The real problem? 400k dead isn't a big enough number to get their attention. They're shooting for 4 million dead Ukranians so that they can feel that they've spread sufficient democracy.
Famous neoliberal!
There's really no getting through to people these days. Some are permanently on the program. They trust the system so much that it's too painful to hear that they've been duped somehow. But I guess by talking openly about it, some silent observer may read what I wrote and the wheels may start turning a bit for them. That's really the only reason why I bother having these types of conversations these days.
Droppersneck
Bluelighter
No one wants to be the dummy. And by falling in lock step with the TV they get to always be right!
Pickledlemons
Bluelighter
Don't know what you're talking about. The referendums, in Crimea, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson, Donetsk and Luhansk were not organized by the Ukrainian state.
No they weren't.
They most certainly did not. Are you trying to reference the Minsk agreements? Yeah Ukraine agreed to cede some territory to Russia for peace, being pressured by west back back in the appeasement days. But Putin came back for more, and the Ukrainians have learned their lesson, a similar lesson Chamberlain had to learn. And same with the collective west, they might not have the same ambitions the Ukrainians do, when it comes to taking back all occupied territory. But they know deals with Putin cannot be trusted.
Russia's perspective? You mean Putin's perspective? If you're anti-war, you go to jail, if you're pro-war but still criticize the Russian military or Putin, you go to jail. The majority of Russians are totally politically disengaged, over 50%, probably more like 60%, and much of the remainder with a brain, have fled. Russians don't have the freedom to have much of a perspective here, unless of course, they keep it to themselves or leave the country.
Anyway, no country is entitled to defensible borders, just ask Poland. There were no Western weapons in Ukraine until the annexation of Crimea and there were no heavy weapons until just a year ago. Whats that quote? "Preventive war is like committing suicide out of fear of death"
What do you mean the CIA moved troops in, what to Crimea? Back in 2014? You're speaking Chinese to me man.
If Russia's security was so much as risk from these 'weapons'.... then you'd think this war would be the perfect pretext for an invasion of Russia, no? Well I don't see any invasion of Russia. I only see nato getting bigger, because countries like Finland are becoming more concerned for their security, because of the actions of Putin. And they decided to join a security alliance, instead of getting into several years of grinding attritional warfare, like Russia did.
And btw, there are no written agreements that nato wouldn't move east. Gorbachev even said so on TV. Then again he also said the exact opposite another time. Well, he was getting pretty old. Who knows with that guy. What is clear is that if there ever was an agreement, it was a long time ago and was never put to paper.
Russia's demands were impossible, they wanted to take nato membership away from countries that already had it, which not even the president of the US has the authority to do. So yes it was preventable, but only by Putin.
Russia was actually in a pretty good place in 2021, diplomatically, it was part of the international system, it had no prospects of any kind of invasion or anything like that (contrary to what you are saying).... And for the most part it was respected. It had a healthy trade in natural resources and weapons and was successfully undermining several democracies while they weren't even paying attention. Putin has totally screwed over his country with this war. The west is definitely paying attention now.
Yeah okay send me a pm when that happens, because Brics seems like a big nothing burger to me. The bank they created, wont even do business with Russia after the war they started and none of the countries seem to be able to agree or anything other than expanding, which will make consensus even harder. They just let in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Yeah I'm sure they're going to work real great together.
Droppersneck
Bluelighter
Any opinions on NATO encroachment? How do you perform the mental gymnastics , and not put yourself in their shoes. If Russia we’re about to take our only warm water port, how would the west respond. Russia is certainly not some victim, and does some terrible shit, but a little bit of perspective is required. Though I do see the allure of the neo con ideology, the onus is on you to see it’s flaws.
Pickledlemons
Bluelighter
Sure if Russia's only warmwater port was actually taken by nato, I could understand. But it wasn't. Russia still controls Sevastopol. It was leasing it from Ukraine, and Russia was the one who cancelled the deal... right after they invaded Crimea. They were afraid Ukraine might cancel the deal, but they didn't. Russia did. And it wasn't set to expire until 2042. As for Ukraine becoming part of nato, it never would have happened, before the war that is. Certainly looking more possible now.
" On 28 March 2014, one week after the annexation of Crimea by Russia[6] Russian President Vladimir Putin submitted proposals to the State Duma on the termination of the legal effect of a number of Russian-Ukrainian agreements, including the 2010 Kharkiv Pact treaty and the Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet.[8] The State Duma unanimously approved the unilateral dissolution of these Russian-Ukrainian agreements with 433 members of parliament voting on 31 March 2014.[7]
Or if you're talking about the fact that Turkey shut down the Bosporus to military ships I mean, that was in reaction to the full scale invasion. Other ships were still allowed through. And lets remember it was Russia who cancelled the grain deal, which is what made getting insurance in the black sea so much harder.
I think this is the most black and white conflict we've seen since world war 2. Just blanket aggression built on faulty assumptions and overconfidence.
gordonliddy
Bluelighter
It's the lack of experience facing adversity that young men have. They are afraid to have independent opinions.
ok grandad 
i think every generation for decades had a certain population who told us "the youth of today have no idea. they don't know what hardship is..."
every generation has challenges. "the youth of today" have plenty to deal with - their troubles are different to the challenges you faced and overcame. but they are still challenges to overcome.
i have a few friends with kids now at, or graduating, college. like the arrogant, untouchable students me and my friends were at that age, they have absolutely no fear voicing their opinions.
yes, it's a tiny sample, but you can't generalize that broadly.
alasdair
i think every generation for decades had a certain population who told us "the youth of today have no idea. they don't know what hardship is..."
every generation has challenges. "the youth of today" have plenty to deal with - their troubles are different to the challenges you faced and overcame. but they are still challenges to overcome.
i have a few friends with kids now at, or graduating, college. like the arrogant, untouchable students me and my friends were at that age, they have absolutely no fear voicing their opinions.
yes, it's a tiny sample, but you can't generalize that broadly.
alasdair
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JGrimez
Bluelighter
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Excuse me Mr. Establishment - can you either stop lying - or please learn about the history.
2014 - the US/EU conducted a coup in Ukraine. A year before democratic elections were set to take place, they decided who they wanted to be in charge of Ukraine. Do you support this? If so, then you'd also support Russia secretly conducting a coup in the US to install their leader. Oh hang on, that's what y'all believe happened in 2016.
The amount of westeners who have such a heightened ego that they think they can decide who should be running countries. Such undemocratic thinking and blatant hypocrisy.
JGrimez
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I wish everyone like yourself (who falsely believe Russia to be the instigators in this conflict) went and fought over there.
You'd basically be sent to your death like what has happened with Ukrainian men.
They were pulling older men off the street and sometimes sending them out with mere weeks worth of training. You'd definitely be accepted. You should go. Join the (good) Nazis in their fight against..... the bad guys? When you're siding with literal Nazis (while claiming back home that Nazis are the worst things ever), well that should lead you to re-examine some of your internalized beliefs.
Not just the US saying that. In fact US is more often saying stuff like "Russia is desperate and about to lose", "Ukraine is winning this war" which are blatant lies.
But advertising the truth on MSM would very quickly cause people to withdraw support for this war.
Americans have been propagandized to hate Russia so much, that they're happy to sacrifice hundreds of thousands (potentially millions) of Ukrainian lives in order to slightly inconvenience the Russians.
gordonliddy
Bluelighter
He's a troll, it's not good for bosses to argue with employees, parents to argue with children or intellectuals to argue with trolls. It makes both us and them worse.
By doing so you stoop to his level.
Pickledlemons
Bluelighter
A 'coup'. Don't know what else you are supposed to do when your leader flees to Russia, other than have another election.
Did you see the crowds at the Revolution of Dignity? Thats not something the CIA could have stirred up. The people were legitimately pissed about their elected leader, not doing what he promised to do ( sign the eu association agreement).
I don’t believe there’s anywhere near that amount of casualties. On the news it was saying Kiev under heavy attack. Someone live streamed the mall in Kiev and it was exactly like any other day.
JGrimez
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Ukraine has basically run out of men.
The men of draft age who fled last year to neighboring countries were then called "refugees". Those same men are now being called "draft dodgers". Ukraine is demanding their extradition. Poland cucked and is sending Ukrainian men basically back to die in the "meat grinder". Hungary, Czech, Germany basically said fuck you we will only send back criminals under proper extradition processes.
Ukraine are desperate they're even recruiting women now. Those death numbers are likely accurate.
The blame for all this lies solely with NATO/USA.
JGrimez
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Putin has no interest in taking Kiev. The only way a temporary occupation there would occur would be if NATO do something stupid and start actually sending in troops. I don't think they will but they're walking a very fine line between supporting a proxy war and becoming directly involved.
This has always been about the Donbass. All this over the fucking Donbass. The rest of the world had never even heard of this region (and what's been going on there) until the media told them to start chanting for Ukraine. Like good NPCs.
And it was hilarious when the media interviewed some actual Neo Nazis in Florida, asked them about the presidential race and then had him reply that he supports Biden because he's sending rockets to the Azov Nazis in Ukraine. So Biden is supporting actual Nazis but Democrats will say that Trump and Trump supporters are Nazis....
This has always been about the Donbass. All this over the fucking Donbass. The rest of the world had never even heard of this region (and what's been going on there) until the media told them to start chanting for Ukraine. Like good NPCs.
And it was hilarious when the media interviewed some actual Neo Nazis in Florida, asked them about the presidential race and then had him reply that he supports Biden because he's sending rockets to the Azov Nazis in Ukraine. So Biden is supporting actual Nazis but Democrats will say that Trump and Trump supporters are Nazis....
Droppersneck
Bluelighter
The best part was Victoria nuland recorded setting up their future cabinet verbatim. Most liberals in the US have adopted the neo conservative philosophy. They were easy to woo after the four years of Russia conspiracies in western state media.
Droppersneck
Bluelighter
He could also just be super indoctrinated by the western imperialist doctrine. But hopefully just a troll, much better alternative imo
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
I recently learned New Zealand has a rugby team named the "All Blacks". Funny name for a professional sports team........
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