• Select Your Topic Then Scroll Down
    Alcohol Bupe Benzos
    Cocaine Heroin Opioids
    RCs Stimulants Misc
    Harm Reduction All Topics Gabapentinoids
    Tired of your habit? Struggling to cope?
    Want to regain control or get sober?
    Visit our Recovery Support Forums

Bupe Using short acting opiates to taper off suboxone/subutex rather then taper to 0

Gordon

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
127
Am wondering rather then tapering down to 0.125 and feeling somewhat crummy isn't it better to use some kind of short acting opiate? which will not only make you feel better but bring the bup withdrawals quicker and purge them?...Am thinking if your going to reach 0.5 bup then instead of going down further why not switch to a shorter half life opiate and using that to taper off bup?...Does it make sense to anybody else? why feel bad at low dose of subs when you can switch to SAOs and not only feel better but purge the bup withdrawals too.

I can't figure out how would it be more beneficial to taper to 0 from 0.5 (or from whatever sub dose) then using SAOs. Your more likely to feel crummy and mentally shittey tapering at low doses of subs, so why not feel tons time better taking SAOs to taper off the subs. If anybody can explain why it would be better to taper to 0 rather then SAOs then please explain.. I understand the fear of addiction to SAOs, but am merely speaking in terms of hindsight.
 
The only times I've been able to successfully get off of an opiate is when I just decided to do it one day and go cold turkey. I was on suboxone way too long and tapering wasn't working. Tapering has never made sense to me. With alcoholics they say one drink is too many....to me it's the same no matter what your drug of choice is.

I know I sound naive, but I will say I think your idea of using a short acting opiate actually makes more sense to me than tapering. The only thing is...once you feel a tiny bit of a high, an addict wants more. So ultimately it could never work. I recently started using Kratom to help me with an oc relapse (more like any opiate I could get my hands on relapse). And it worked....i was a little sick for a few days & then I did ok. The only problem is I started using the kratom regularly (you're totally surprised right?! never saw that coming). But it is very short acting. Which probably means the wd will be violent for a few days but won't last long. So in a way, I'm about to try what you were suggesting and see if one can transition from hard opiates to a shorter acting one and then get off. The one good thing about suboxone was that it let me get used to living and not being high, but kept my opiate receptors sated. So by the time I did go through physical withdraws, I wasn't fighting the mental obsession at the same time . In that way, I think the kratom might work...it doesn't get me high but it does plug the opiate receptors. And since I don't really get high off it, I don't fiend for it. Increasing the dose doesn't really do anything. So I am tapering a little with it. While I'm not looking forward to the WD, I don't think the length of the withdraw will be as bad since it is so short acting. Mainly just waiting so that I have five days in a row off where I don't have to get off my couch or interact with anyone. Yes, I know all that sounds pretty naive...but let me fool myself for a bit longer...until about day 2 of the WDs. Ultimately, I really don't think there is any easy way to get off opiates other than gutting it out. But I'd hate to waste a perfectly good theory.



OFF topic: Good luck with getting off suboxone. It won't be easy. But you will be so proud when a month has went by and you realize you have done it!!! It's one of the longer withdrawals I've went through. But not quite as intense as some opiate withdrawals. I really wish doctors wouldn't be so quick to prescribe it. They have no idea what they are doing to the patient. I would never make that choice again.

If you need anyone to talk to when you are coming off the suboxone, I would be happy to help. The length of the withdrawal is mentally taxing. I wasn't expecting the length of it, so when I passed the date I thought I should have been feeling better on, I started to panic. Kinda let the black clouds take over. You start thinking you will never come out. For me, talking to someone who had been through it already, totally saved me. I just needed someone to tell me that it was normal to last that long. Then I calmed down and got through the rest of the WD pretty easily. Like I said it's not quite as intense as some opiates...just lasts longer. Also, from what I've read since then, I think the length of my withdrawal was definitely due to the length of time I was on suboxone. So don't let your doctors keep you on it one day longer than needed. They don't really understand the drug. A textbook understanding is far from comprehensive. Unfortunately, it's a money mine for them. Every time I start a conversation in my head where I try to explain to my doctor everything she did wrong...I just start screaming at her, even in my head. So I haven't tried educating her in person yet. But I think it's information that really needs to be spread.
 
Last edited:
Yeah I can imagaine the sub withdrawals being hard. I went through them 1 time after I was on sub for 6 months, but recovered after 5 weeks, this was after taking 1.2mgs daily for 6 months without a taper, way back in 2004.

All I have is morphine sulphate, some dihydrocodeine continus release and tramadol, don't want to use the tramadol as it makes me feel crap when I stop it, even after 1 day.

Am guessing time release opiates would be better for bup withdrawals? in the sense it will make it easier to stabilize?

by the way Toad how long did your mental and pshycal withdrawals last from bup?
 
So, this can work IF you are able to do it properly and not just go back to using opioids addictively. My drug of addiction was IV heroin, and when I was ready to quit methadone I was very motivated and had no problem refraining from abusing the oral morphine I used to help get off methadone. I absolutely wish I had been able to make the switch to morphine and taper off that way sooner, I would have stopped the methadone much sooner if that had been an option for me earlier (as it was I spent over a year tapering the methadone to a very low dose before jumping to the morphine, which I think did me some harm as I was in mild withdrawals for SO long).

So be honest with yourself, do you think that using oral morphine might possibly tempt you to use it in a way other than you intend, or to go back to using other opioids? Will you be able to use just the minimal amount needed and not take a little extra to try to feel it? Are you (falsely) expecting that morphine will enable you to taper totally painlessly and have no withdrawal symptoms at all afterwards? Or are you just hoping that you can stabilize on the morphine for a bit (long enough to cover the usual length of bupe withdrawal), then quickly taper off it and at least the withdrawals from morphine are way shorter than those from buprenorphine?
 
I would just stay with your Suboxone taper if I was you. When I was doing my Suboxone taper, I most likely would have started getting high again if I switched to a full agonist opiate. The problem comes when you have to find the right dose to stabilize you. You may take just a little bit too much at first and say "Wow my tolerance is a lot lower now. This feels really nice." Then you end up convincing yourself you're better because you tapered all the way down from where you were and start taking an extra pill every now and then for that quick buzz when you get home from work. Before long, you're back where you started.

That's how it probably would have happened to me anyway. If you have very strong willpower, it's possible to taper off with any opiate, even IV heroin... but why take the risk? I just don't see a benefit. Suboxone is almost always going to be cheaper and it's made to not get you high. Sure, the withdrawals may be longer but they'll also be less intense.
 
About 8 years or so ago, I also jumped from 125mg of methadone cold turkey and almost died from dehydration because I couldn't even keep liquid down and had to be admitted to the hospital multiple times for IV fluids to keep me properly hydrated... withdrawals took well OVER 2-3+ months to start feeling somewhat "normal" again... I've also kicked Suboxone 3 times in jail and while it wasn't NEARLY as intense as the methadone WDs, it almost identical in length of time and there is NO WAY I would ever do it again, even doing it by tapering slowly... I just wouldn't...

So the last time I kicked Subs, I did it by switching over to 30mg roxi's for 3-4 weeks to make sure MOST of the buprenorphine was eliminated from my system, then kicked for 5-7 days from the oxycodone. And I am definitely not suggesting ANYONE ELSE to do so, but that is what I did to get off in the quickest/most humane way I could think of... although one thing that is extremely shitty about this method is that it costs $$$ for enough oxycodone to keep you out of withdrawals long enough during the entire 3-4 week period, because unlike the buprenorphine, which is a LONG lasting opioid (Most need only dose once a day to keep out of withdrawal), oxycodone is a SHORT acting opioid, meaning you really need to divide every days dose evenly between 3-5+ times a day to keep withdrawal at bay...

Anyway, good luck with your journey! Just know that IT WILL AND IT DOES GET BETTER! Definitely keep us updated on your progress too!

Take care and be safe!
 
1 month on SAOs does not seem feasible enough to rid of bup withdrawals. Many are suggesting 6-9 months on SAOs, or else you might aswel save money and suck the bup withdrawals..

Is it not better to use time/extended release opiates instead of the instance ones to fight off bup withdrawals? at least you do not have to spend so much money and taking so many through out the day.
 
How about trying Kratom and/or Loperamide instead of a full agonist? It took enough of the edge off my .5 jump that I made it through. It was still hard, but I was able to go to work and at least have the appearance of normalcy.
 
It sounds like trading one habit for another to me. I have been on subs for over a year and trying to taper down but I usually seem to fuck up and hit the oxy or H again. What kind of time does it take to get the Bupe out of your system? I know years ago when I quit methadone cold turkey I felt like dieing for a good 2 weeks. Do I have the same thing in store for me when I finally stop taking my 1/4 of a strip a day? If so I might do what I have been reading about and try and ween off with the help of some Fentnyl. Fent does not do much to me and I know the lolly pops have a short half life so maybe that might be a way to go?
 
This is in general a very stupid idea in my book. Especially if you plan to stay that long on short acting full agonists:

1 month on SAOs does not seem feasible enough to rid of bup withdrawals. Many are suggesting 6-9 months on SAOs, or else you might aswel save money and suck the bup withdrawals

6-9 months??? Really? Dude, even 1 month is way too long in my opinion. The probability to just fall back into old patterns and get addicted to the other opioids is way too high. Especially with "SAOs" since the urge to redose is much stronger with these.

Just taper down to the lowest amount possible and jump off with the help of some other meds like Gabapentin, something relatively harmless like Mirtazapin or Promethazine to sleep and maybe some Benzos for the acute phase.
 
I am a long term sub user and from many reports long term bup users tend to feel shyte for a year at least, so I wondered why not use a SAO for 6 months minmum and then taper off them?
 
I'm not sure how well it would work for a sub habit, but I easily halted a relative low dose daily oxy habit with kratom. The plain leaf form will scratch your itch, and is yet unpleasant enough to keep it from being a new habit.

As you know, subs are much different than oxy, but for how much it cost and how 'easy' it made quitting, it is worth looking into.
 
How much of Kratom Capsules can you take to help sub withdrawals? and what Kratom is the best?
 
I would start with 6 grams of plain leaf to test how it works for you. I recommend Bali for the cost efficiency, when you are coming off a habit you won't really notice the difference between commercial grade Bali and more expensive Maeng Da.

6 grams may be too low a dose , or just right, but it's a good place to start and see how it works for you.

Also, if you plan on taking it for a while you might look at learning to 'toss and wash' or invest in a capping machine. Pre-capped kratom seems to cost more and it takes longer to feel the effect of.
 
Thanks!

How do I take the plain leaf? am pretty new to Kratom and so far only figured you can make them as a tea or take them in caps..

How is the Maeg Da caps of 500mgs? and which is the best place to buy Kratom in the UK.

Also would Kratom really help Subutex withdrawals from 0.25mg? am being told you need to take Kratom for 5 months or so to help the subutex withdrawals and it's PAWS.
 
1 month on SAOs does not seem feasible enough to rid of bup withdrawals. Many are suggesting 6-9 months on SAOs, or else you might aswel save money and suck the bup withdrawals...
Who suggests 6-9 months?!? I have never heard anyone suggest that long. The general recommendation is about 2-4 weeks followed by a very quick taper (maybe around another 2 weeks) off the shorter-acting opioid. It's not painless but it shortens the withdrawal in comparison to buprenorphine or methadone.

I don't think you need to take kratom for 5 months either. You can't cover all of a given drug's PAWS by using another opioid if that's what you're thinking - if you use the new opioid long-term you are going to be getting both acute and post-acute withdrawals from it when you quit anyway. Maybe the PAWS from kratom are not so bad as the PAWS from bupe, I don't know (probably depends on the person, how much you use, how long, etc), but IMO it's not very practical or worthwhile to trade one physical dependence for another long-term physical dependence if your goal is to get off opioids.
 
Last edited:
Well many ex-sub users claimes thats what they would do and a few went on Kratom and/or other SAOs for 8 months and claimed it worked better that way..Also some people used SAO for 2-3 months and still claimed they have sub PAWS, these people have experienced both sub WDs/PAWS and SAOs WDs, and have also taken SAOs between 3 months and 6-8 months, and all said the longer on SAOs the better or else 1 month or short is not worth it..

It may shorten the bup withdrawals but not so fast where you only use SAO for a month or so..It can take 6 months to 2-4 years to recover from bup PAWS (the ones who have taken sub for over 6 months) so thats why many suggest half a year on SAOs or Kratom...

By the time folks stop SAO the bup PAWS would have gone or not felt, so your only left with SAOs PAWS or Kratom lingering affects, but you can always taper the SAOs/Kratom, and then take something like Gapaptentin or Naltrexone to shorten SAO PAWS ,even Iboga can be an option, so basically am looking foor a long term plan like this...Too many folks have said 1 month or even 3 months on SAO is just too short and not worth it, if anything makes it worse, this is also why Iboga providers claim to be off sub 3 months to 5 months before proceeding with the treatment..
 
Anyway about the Kratom, if anybody has any ideas how to take plain leaf, or how are the Maeang Da caps please let me know..cheers.
 
Top