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Lysergamides Using LSD as a substitute for DMT in ayahuasca

red22

red22

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Harmaline goes with either acid or psilocybin. I generally give them 125 milligrams. I used to give them 250 milligrams and they'd get pretty damned nauseated by it. The 125 milligrams is sufficient for them. This is a psychoactive material but it's not psychedelic, and this amount does not add to the base level. They would take their normal amount of acid and just add this which does not increase the activity of the other psychedelic. It's just an auxiliary, and brings a different dimension to it. Some people would prefer 250 milligrams instead of 125 milligrams of the harmaline.

The Secret Chief (Myron Stolaroff, 1997). 5. Materials and Doses


I've done this combination twice recently 4.5g syrian rue + 100ug 1p-lsd and my girlfriend did 3g rue + 50ug acid (she's more sensitive than I)

We both had some of the deepest and most incredible trips we've ever had, the depth of experience was definitely increased over taking the acid alone

[...]

The potential for shadow work here is incredible, this is the area that all my psychedelic experiences have ultimately pointed towards as the point of all this.

[...]

There's way too much that happened to cover it all in such a short post but I know that I'll personally never be doing LSD again without rue / caapi to accompany it.

Pile of cats, 6/11/2021, https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1107818#post1107818

I found the combination to be much more relaxing / reassuring / pleasant than LSD alone.

https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109541#post1109541


And I've used various maoi preps [rue freebase/lsd, caapi freebase/lsd, rue seed tea/lsd, caapi tea/lsd], and the only one that ever gave a me a bit of a challenge and was somewhat rough on the stomach and overall a very powerful experience was rue tea/lsd - that was a 'one-time' experience for me..

But the rest of those combinations were pretty incredible for me. I felt much of what POCats stated. Those combinations for me were somewhat dreamier, stronger overall, and mentally I felt more relaxed [thoughts were significantly more spaced out, much less lsd-analytical], even when the potential for a powerful experience/full dissolution is there.

○, 7/1/21, https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109576#post1109576


LSD + Caapi = absurdly intense vision quest


Do not attempt to do this! It fucked a friend up really bad. He was being chased by giant trees which wanted to eat him alive. He combined 3g of rue with 250mics. It might be pleasureable at low doses but since its still kind of a mystery of what lsd does and how it does it exactly i'd be careful! Plus you never know the grade of acid you're in for. In his case it was white fluff.. and it surely fucked him up bigtime. He will not ever partake in any kind of psychedelic experience again.

lorax, 7/14/2009, LSD + MAOI - WARNING!! DO NOT ATTEMPT!


rtg: Yes, I've tried several times LSD and [moclobemide] combo. The doses were for LSD: from 150 to about 400ug; for moclo 300-450mg. No negative effects noted

ismene: What did you think of LSD and moclo? Did you notice much difference to a standard LSD trip?

rtg: Little more physical stimulating than normal LSD trip, the effects on psychic were rather normal, except that it was harder and longer. Moclo is an inhibitor, which in itself has no psychoactive effect, so there is no effect on experience

26-06-2011, https://bluelight.org/xf/threads/maois-reduce-the-effects-of-lsd.716792/post-12238970


LSA + rue, caapi, or harmine hcl...check this out

I'm really thrilled with what this does to me, it feels so healthy and natural.


Interesting fact: DMT is a component of the LSD molecule.

edit LSD isn't as similar to DMT as I originally thought. The upper part of the DMT molecule in LSD is flipped.

JBdQohn.png
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I've seen some reports which said that the stimulant effect of the LSD was more potentiated.

But, I'm basically posting so I get notifications on this one.
 
Just to let you know, you can 'Watch' a thread just by clicking the 'Watch' button at the top of the thread.
 
Leo Zeff was a fan of this iirc. I fucking love lysergahuasca and made a BL thread about it a while back, I've probably used it 20-50 times total I'd guess? Usually with Banisteriopsis caapi tea or harmaline/tetrahydroharmine extract in gel caps, never tried moclobemide in the first place. The first time I ever did this, I didn't expect cross potentiation and it was my first time with ayahuasca in the first place (That brew was Mimosa hostilis and Peganum harmala), so I dropped 750ug of the cleanest acid I've ever used on top of it. Fuck that was a LOT, but it was one of the most beautiful and healing experiences of my entire life. I also don't know if I have the capacity for a bad trip though, many hundreds deep at this point and they've been resoundingly positive every time, so take my advice here with a grain of salt.

Friends I've administered this shit to have lost their fucking minds. Never permanently, but to the point of being shaken for multiple weeks and not being able to socialize or sleep well, that type of shit. Even one super irondomed dude I watched eat 50 tabs and have a great time lost his goddamn mind after insufflating ~75mg of harmaline in three bumps and taking 325ug.

Imo the safest way to do this is to brew weak caapi tea or to move in 10-15mg insufflated bumps of harmaline, and add it after you take the LSD. It'll still work, it just takes like 45+/-15 minutes for the caapi to come up, and the insufflated harmaline is damn near instant as far as when you begin noticing it, but it finishes kicking in within 5-15 minutes, metabolism dependent it seems.

Another note about it is that it lasts a L O N G time, I'm talking 18-24 hours for most people at 325ug with ~75mg of harmaline. It feels like being in the eye of a hurricane bu in the most peaceful little oasis of tranquility that could possibly exist. If you're not experienced with harmalas/MAOIs, start with those on their own, they're plenty active and the harmala alks are also acetylcholinesterase inhibitors (think galantamine, sinicuichi and noopept) which are anecdotally recognized as consistently potentiating psychs, on top of the MAOI potentiation that's already going on. Harmala nausea is no joke if you dose too high, and keep a benzo on hand if you even have the capacity for a bad trip because this shit is intense in an introspective way that no other psychedelic or combination of them has ever been for me.
 
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Esperighanto said:
I've probably used it 20-50 times total I'd guess? Usually with Banisteriopsis caapi tea or harmaline/tetrahydroharmine extract in gel caps, never tried moclobemide in the first place. The first time I ever did this, I didn't expect cross potentiation and it was my first time with ayahuasca in the first place (That brew was Mimosa hostilis and Peganum harmala), so I dropped 750ug of the cleanest acid I've ever used on top of it. Fuck that was a LOT
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You know if you ever want to do a blog on some of your escapades I'd be a dedicated reader Esperighanto. Some of you all are heavy hitters and I am sure you would have stories. ;)

I did smoke some harmala on acid once. I have done harmala and mushrooms once that was a very intense trip.

I need to get off kratom so I can play with harmala again. Just plain powder. Working on that. Not sure I trust the combo.
 
JackARoe said:
You know if you ever want to do a blog on some of your escapades I'd be a dedicated reader Esperighanto. Some of you all are heavy hitters and I am sure you would have stories. ;)

I did smoke some harmala on acid once. I have done harmala and mushrooms once that was a very intense trip.

I need to get off kratom so I can play with harmala again. Just plain powder. Working on that. Not sure I trust the combo.
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What was smoking Harmala on acid like?
 
brokedownpalace10 said:
What was smoking Harmala on acid like?
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Well, I had just finished reading Terence McKenna‘s True Hallucinations. The book had just come out. I was aiming for that vegetable TV effect mentioned in the book. It did something a little bit, I remember thinking that it made it feel like morning glory seeds. This is an old memory as it was 30 years ago.
 
JackARoe said:
Well, I had just finished reading Terence McKenna‘s True Hallucinations. The book had just come out. I was aiming for that vegetable TV effect mentioned in the book. It did something a little bit, I remember thinking that it made it feel like morning glory seeds. This is an old memory as it was 30 years ago.
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Mostly a qualitative difference and not quantitative?
 
I've done it. Low doses give it general enhancement, higher doses make it seem like a tryptamine.
 
JackARoe said:
I need to get off kratom so I can play with harmala again. Just plain powder. Working on that. Not sure I trust the combo.
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I've had kratom in my system with a variety of drugs/serotonergic drugs many times over the years, as well as harmala alkaloids, and I haven't noticed any signs of serotonin toxicity or any sort of interaction.

openmind, 12/18/17, https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24854160#24854160

I always take kratom with every drug it makes it better stg, I take it with Ayahuasca and it completely gets rid of the cold shaking. It's not really even a stimulant in neurotransmitter terms.

Purple-Ad-4026, 7/26/24, https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychonaut/s/j1CMxgjGpQ
 
red22 said:
I always take kratom with every drug it makes it better stg, I take it with Ayahuasca and it completely gets rid of the cold shaking. It's not really even a stimulant in neurotransmitter terms.
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That is really good info to add to the whole kratom/MAOI interactions. If searching there is not a lot of info. When there an ayahuasca board was still up a few people said the same. I often worried about the stimulant effect mixing with an MAOI but kratom is not like yohimbe or ephedra. I believe the stimulant effect is the same as any other opioid that gives energy. But I never wanted to chance it so I have not taken oral DMT in over 10 years because of this. Been sticking with mushrooms and a few other things to trip.

Makes me wonder if people on methadone or buprenorphine can take a MAOI.

Still working to get off. It is my only addiction (except for light daily cannabis use) that I have. Been on it too long have to find a time where I don't have to stay on my game. A nice little vacation from the world but it is not coming at this time.
 
JackARoe said:
That is really good info to add to the whole kratom/MAOI interactions. If searching there is not a lot of info. When there an ayahuasca board was still up a few people said the same. I often worried about the stimulant effect mixing with an MAOI but kratom is not like yohimbe or ephedra. I believe the stimulant effect is the same as any other opioid that gives energy. But I never wanted to chance it so I have not taken oral DMT in over 10 years because of this. Been sticking with mushrooms and a few other things to trip.

Makes me wonder if people on methadone or buprenorphine can take a MAOI.

Still working to get off. It is my only addiction (except for light daily cannabis use) that I have. Been on it too long have to find a time where I don't have to stay on my game. A nice little vacation from the world but it is not coming at this time.
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Any drug that isn't metabolized by (or also inhibits) monoamine oxidase would be fine. You can do however much ritalin you normally would for example while on MAOIs, since they're not metabolized by MAO. I suspect that the perceived potentiation of MAOIs on cannabis is not actually potentiation, but synergy.
 
JackARoe said:
You know if you ever want to do a blog on some of your escapades I'd be a dedicated reader Esperighanto. Some of you all are heavy hitters and I am sure you would have stories. ;)

I did smoke some harmala on acid once. I have done harmala and mushrooms once that was a very intense trip.

I need to get off kratom so I can play with harmala again. Just plain powder. Working on that. Not sure I trust the combo.
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I appreciate the sentiments! I need to get around to writing up trip reports I've got notes on soon. Many are mild but useful tools, like daily dosing 2C-B for depression and how that went in retrospect. Once during sleep paralysis while on lysergahuasca a very paranormal succubus visited me and healed a lot of past sexual trauma somehow. Once off ~500ug I kept trying to get into a convenience store unable to figure out why the doors wouldn't open, until I realized it was locked bc it was actively being robbed. I'll have to think of a few of the more notable ones and write some blogspot shit like Nervewing.

I could never really hold up to the creative writing of Nervewing (they're my muse, straight up) but I'll do my best haha.

Also I don't think kratom and harmalas interact poorly other than potentially nausea compounding, but I've mixed them numerous times to no issue as well as a couple friends of mine. We never exceeded 8g of leaf and we never used kratom daily either, so we got more nauseous than usual bc of the compounded nausea from both drugs.
 
I think almost all the natural MAOIs are extremely weak. @sekio has posted about this. Note that the lower numbers in the chart he posted indicate a stronger effect (I think it's because smaller molecules can slip through more pores or something).

sekio said:
The problem is that, although some of these flavonoids are indeed MAO inhibitors in cell culture, their rapid metabolism, poor BBB penetration, and relatively low natural abundance make them hundreds to thousands fold less effective than selegiline per milligram in humans.

Catechin and epicatechin are present in many fruits and veg. (Also, e.g. tea) There's not much evidence that the levels consumed in food are active as MAO-B inhibitors though.
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sekio said:
I seem to recall that rhodiola flavonoids (rosiridin etc), while they are in fact MAOIs, are micromolar as opposed to nanomolar level efficacy. So I have doubts how effective they are.

Here's a chart with figures I sourced from various bits of the internet. Clearly there are some MAOIS that are more effective than others.

LE6R6TG.png
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This article has a section that provides info about a lot of natural MAOIs:

Synthetic and Natural Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors as Potential Lead Compounds for Effective Therapeutics. Pathak A, Srivastava AK, Singour PK, Gouda P. Cent Nerv Syst Agents Med Chem. 2016;16(2):81-97. doi: 10.2174/1871524915666150624120516

The article lists 54 herbs that contain chemicals with MAOI activity. As I suspected, only two of these chemicals have MAO-A activity that is comparable to harmine's (the predominant MAOI in B. caapi): quercetin (found in Hypericum hircinum and Melastoma candidum) and 1,5-dihydroxy-3-methoxyxanthone (found in Chironia krebsii).


PLANTS AS A SOURCE OF MONOAMINE OXIDASE INHIBITORS

Plant extracts and their active phytoconstituents have long been used for the treatment of several neurological and psychiatric disorders [171, 172]. Diverse differences in the structure of bioactive compounds present in medicinal plants makes them an alternative source of new lead compounds adjacent to various therapeutic targets. These phytoconstituents play a key role in the regulation of higher brain function by maintaining the chemical balance via the alteration of receptor functionality for different neurotransmitters. In recent years, several herbal based medicines have been used as MAO inhibitors [173-175]. There are diverse types of chemical constituents present in plant having MAO inhibitory activity and their possible neuroprotective activity [176]. Beta-carbolines are bioactive and potent alkaloids derived from indole capable of neuromodulating and neuropharmacological properties. Aromatic beta-carbolines have also been studied for their possible effects on MAO activity [177]. Diterpenes like carnosic acid, isolated from plants like rosemary and sage shows MAO-A inhibitory activity [178] and some of isoquinoline alkaloids also displayed the MAO inhibitory activity. Isomers of widely distributed natural oxoaporphines after oxidation of unambiguous alkaloids (aporphines) also revealed MAO inhibitory potential [179]. Some natural coumarins isolated from plants characterized as potent and selective MAO inhibitors [180, 181]. Out of different natural bioactive chemical constituents, natural coumarins show the most potent activity against both MAO isoforms. In 1999, Huong et al. [182] have reported isolation of coumarins with MAO inhibitory potential from chloroform extract of the root of Peucedanum japonicum. Natural geiparvarin and its analogues which have structural similarity with coumarin scaffold have been reported by Carotti et al. [183] and tested as inhibitors of both MAO-A and B isoforms. In 2002, Huong et al. [184] investigated MAO inhibitory activity of isolated coumarin such as Psoralen, Bergepten from plant Aquilaria agallocha. Seon et al. [185] reported that the same type of activity from methanolic extract of the aerial parts of Dictamnus albus. Passos et al. [186] isolated indole alkaloids from Psychotria species and investigated their human recombinant MAO-A inhibitory activity and molecular docking studies. Caffeine is a weak MAO-B inhibitor, but substitution of the caffeine ring at C8 with a variety of group’s yields compounds capable of significantly enhanced MAO-B inhibitory activities compared to caffeine [187, 188].

In recent years, several plants derived MAO inhibitors have been effectively used in the treatment of neurological disorder such as depression. Flavonoids as a major bioactive phytoconstituents of different plants have been shown to have potential antidepressant activity by MAO inhibition [189]. Quercetin islated from Ethyl acetate fraction of Calluna vulgaris L. exert its antidepressant and sedative effect via its MAO-A inhibitory activity [190]. Stilbenoids isolated from methanolic extract of rhizomes and roots of Veratrum taliense Loes have been shown to have MAO-A inhibitory activity [191]. Sarsasapogenin a steroidal sapogenin as a potent isolated compound from Anemarrhena asphodeloides Bunge, also has been shown to have antidepressant like effects in behavioral mouse models like despair test and force swim test [192]. Curcumin a diarylheptanoid from Curcuma longa L. proved its antidepressant efficacy primarily by inhibiting MAO-A, whereas it inhibited MAO-B solitary at high dose [193]. Extracts of different plants such as Areca catechu, Piper nigrum L., Asparagus racemosus Willd, Rhazya stricta Decne, Melissa officinalis L., Origanum vulgare L., have been reported to demonstrate significant antidepressant activity probably mediated via the monoaminergic system [194-201]. Standardized extract of leaves of Ginkgo biloba L., evaluated for its possible antiparkinson activity and found to possess MAO-B inhibitory activity [202]. Salvia miltiorrhiza Bunge (Lamiaceae) was suggested as a valuable herbal medicine for the treatment of PD along with MAO-A inhibitory activity [203]. Green tea extract and its active constituent (-)-epigalochatechin-3-galate exhibited their neuroprotective properties in MPTP mouse model of PD. Active phytoconstituent (-)-epigalochatechin-3-galate demonstrated its antioxidant properties by inhibiting catalase induction and decreasing the level of superoxide dismutase (SOD) in brain [204]. Dihydrocoumarin from the ethyl acetate extract of the dried bark of Gentiana lutea L. (Gentianaceae), Coumarins found in Geijera parviflora Lindl. (Rutaceae), exhibited MAO-B inhibitory activity [204, 183].

Examples of some natural plants possessing MAO inhibitory activity are given in Table 2.

 
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