Dissociatives Using ketamine as a substitute for DMT in ayahuasca

[red22]

The Physicality of Psytrance: An Experience with Ketamine & Syrian Rue. arionthemoon. 2018-03-20. Erowid, exp111110

Have you used ket and harmalas together? Ive always thrown up when I dosed them together, but I think I could do a better job of fasting beforehand.

Brother_Nature178, 2023-10-28, reddit

Ketamine isn’t really potentiate by harmalas in my experience. If anything it just makes the experience feel a little better and more smooth, and maybe more stimulating. I never combined the two in large doses though so be careful.

Bardy, 2024-10-22, https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28995221#28995221



MAOI info:

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Clinical doses of ketamine for used for induction of anaesthesia, maintenance of analgesia, or treatment of depression, do not result in serotonin re-uptake inhibition (SRI). Peak concentrations of ketamine when used for induction of anaesthesia may result in inhibition of norepinephrine reuptake and might theoretically result in exaggerated hypertension when used in the presence of MAO-A or non-selective MAO-AB inhibition; safe concurrent use has been reported in a small number of cases[23-25]. It is clearly prudent to continue monitor such combinations closely.

23. Hopwood, S.E., et al., Effects of chronic tramadol on pre- and post-synaptic measures of monoamine function. J Psychopharmacol, 2001. 15(3): p. 147-53.

24. WHO, Ondansetron and serotonin syndrome. WHO Pharmaceuticals Newsletter, 2012. 3: p. 16.

25. Anon, Can 5-HT3 antagonists (e.g., ondansetron etc.) really contribute to serotonin toxicity? Hunter Drug Information Service. HDIS Fact Sheet. Hunter New England Health District., 2014.
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MAOIs and Anaesthesia. Ken Gillman M.D. 2019, 2025. PsychoTropical Research

Someone on reddit asked, "Is it safe to take an MAOI alongside spravato?" Someone replied, "Absolutely. Though, a watchful eye on BP during treatments is wise for the sake of a little extra bit of caution." And then he elaborated thus:

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I am a Parnate + Ketamine/Spravato patient myself (for over 1.5+ years) and have had zero issues with blood pressure or haemodynamics during treatments. Heck, this was even with Vyvanse on top of it!

I started Spravato at the same time as Parnate, as per the Spravato newly-initiated oral antidepressant model, and funnily enough the hypotension in the first few weeks of starting an MAOI was more of an issue than any of the perceived risks surrounding excessive hypertension. The idea that this combination has any potential for inducing serotonin toxicity is completely ill-founded.

We have a number of members in the International MAOI Expert Group who have had experience and success with Ketamine and MAOIs in combination. One particular case is documented in a recent paper I co-authored, An Expert Roundtable Discussion on the Use of Classic Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors in the Treatment of Depression – Part Two.

There are a number of other publications attesting to the safety and efficacy of combined MAOIs and Ketamine:

Veraart JKE, Smith-Apeldoorn SY, Kutscher M, et al. Safety of Ketamine Augmentation to Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors in Treatment-Resistant Depression: A Systematic Literature Review and Case Series. J Clin Psychiatry. 2022;83(6):21m14267. Published 2022 Oct 24. doi:10.4088/JCP.21m14267

Wang, Jay Ching Chieh MD, ISAM; Swainson, Jennifer MD, FRCPC. The Concurrent Treatment With Intravenous Ketamine and an Irreversible Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor for Treatment-Resistant Depression Without Hypertensive Crises. Journal of Clinical Psychopharmacology 40(5):‍p 515-517, 9/10 2020. | DOI: 10.1097/JCP.0000000000001244

Bottemanne, Hugo MD; Bonnard, Emilie MD; Claret, Anne MD; Petit, Anne-Cécile MD, PhD; Gaillard, Raphaël MD, PhD; Fossati, Philippe MD, PhD. Ketamine and Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor Combination: Utility, Safety, Efficacy?. Journal of Clinical Psychopharmacology 40(6):‍p 36-638, 11/12 2020. | DOI: 10.1097/JCP.0000000000001281

Katz RB, Toprak M, Wilkinson ST, Sanacora G, Ostroff R. Concurrent use of ketamine and monoamine oxidase inhibitors in the treatment of depression: a letter to the editor. General hospital psychiatry. 2018 Sep;54:62. doi:10.1016/j.genhosppsych.2018.05.007

Bartova L, Vogl SE, Stamenkovic M, Praschak-Rieder N, Naderi-Heiden A, Kasper S, Willeit M. Combination of intravenous S-ketamine and oral tranylcypromine in treatment-resistant depression: a report of two cases. European Neuropsychopharmacology. 2015 Nov 1;25(11):2183-4. doi:10.1016/j.euroneuro.2015.07.021
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IrreversibleReuptake, 2023-12-13, reddit


Using LSD as a substitute for DMT in ayahuasca

Using mescaline as a substitute for DMT in ayahuasca

Using MDMA as a substitute for DMT in ayahuasca


The myth that ayahuasca has to contain DMT

 

[JackARoe]

No takers on this one eh Red ? Until we find a substance in nature that mimics ketamine I don’t think it could be used for anything other than what it does itself.

Just my opinion, of course. But I will say that was a good read.

 

[red22]

Edited a comment into the post.

 

[Esperighanto]

CYP3A4 and CYP2D6 both alter ketamine's metabolism according to this article, linked here. I'd imagine that inhibitors or inducers of those enzymes would be more impactful as to altering the metabolism of ketamine.

 

[dopamimetic]

Until we find a substance in nature that mimics ketamine I don’t think it could be used for anything other than what it does itself..

As a disso lover I had to investigate this and there are indeed some natural dissociatives. Of course ibogaine but also kratom contains traces of one. The caveat is that all I found were just in traces so one would have to acquire a lot of plant matter and do an extraction, I am both too poor and unskilled chemically to do this unfortunately. I also forgot the chemicals name but I posted it in NSPD.

But seeing that some guys made 7-OH mitragynine then I wonder why not a dissociative. Maybe opioids generate more sales.

 

[red22]

To the topic, are MAOIs and ketamine safe to use together? My hunch is that there might be an increase in blood pressure but this is not based on any data.

Second half of post.

 

[Esperighanto]

As a disso lover I had to investigate this and there are indeed some natural dissociatives. Of course ibogaine but also kratom contains traces of one. The caveat is that all I found were just in traces so one would have to acquire a lot of plant matter and do an extraction, I am both too poor and unskilled chemically to do this unfortunately. I also forgot the chemicals name but I posted it in NSPD.

But seeing that some guys made 7-OH mitragynine then I wonder why not a dissociative. Maybe opioids generate more sales.

The dissociative alks in kratom are a bitch to extract and purify, and you get VERY little out in total. In addition to that, 7-OH isn't extracted from the plant, mitragynine is extracted and then further oxidized, making 7-OH "semi-synthetic" like how THC-O is just THC mixed with the chemist's version of pure vinegar (glacial acetic acid, aka pure vinegar whereas normal culinary vinegar is like 5-10% glacial acetic acid, remainder water).

 

[Allylbenzene]

Until we find a substance in nature that mimics ketamine...

See agmatine, an endogenous neurotransmitter and decarboxylation product of arginine. It shares a similar primary MOA as (S)-ketamine (AMPA, mTOR, glutamate) with additional α2-adrenergic, 5-HT2A, sigma and imidazoline activity. It lacks ketamines estrogenic effects which is a plus. Agmatine is used as an all around drug potentiator and anti-addiction aid.

As for (R)-ketamine which is primarily a DRI, there are a few natural options.

Agmatine, an endogenous amine, has been proposed as a neuromodulator in the CNS, since it is taken up by presynaptic axon terminals, stored in synaptic vesicles, and released through membrane depolarization (Piletz et al., 2013). Moreover, it may be co-localized with other neurotransmitters, particularly with glutamate in nerve cell bodies and synaptic terminals (Seo et al., 2011). Also, it is an agonist for the α-2-adrenergic and imidazoline receptors and an antagonist for the NMDA receptor (Piletz et al., 2013).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0924977X16300074

The fact that the concentration of agmatine in brain was comparable to that of classic neurotransmitters suggested that agmatine might be a neurotransmitter.
...
As a result of its ability to inhibit both hyperalgesia and tolerance to, and withdrawal from, morphine, and its neuroprotective activity, agmatine has potential as a treatment of chronic pain, addictive states and brain injury.
...
Chronically, agmatine prevents tolerance to morphine dosing for ten days, blocking tolerance to the delta opioid peptide receptor ligand [d-Pen,d-Pen]enkephalin but not to the kappa κ3 opioid peptide receptor agonist naloxone benzoylhydrazone. Most interestingly, agmatine dose-dependently and significantly attenuates all of the behavioral signs of the morphine abstinence syndrome that is precipitated in morphine-addicted rats by naloxone.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0924977X16300074

CYP3A4 and CYP2D6 both alter ketamine's metabolism according to this article, linked here. I'd imagine that inhibitors or inducers of those enzymes would be more impactful as to altering the metabolism of ketamine.

Ketamine metabolism by CYP enzymes:

bcp15467-fig-0001-m hosted at ImgBB

Image bcp15467-fig-0001-m hosted on ImgBB

ibb.co

Nice list of cytochrome P450 inhibitors/inducers:

Cytochrome P450 - HerbPedia

herbpedia.wikidot.com

 

[Bitchniggaz]

As a fan of both i honestly dont see the point if this.

DMT and Ketamine is nothing alike whatsoever.
If anything i would combine Ketamine with something like 4acodmt if you want a deep combo with a touch of the DMT spirit.

 

[JackARoe]

See agmatine, an endogenous neurotransmitter and decarboxylation product of arginine. It shares a similar primary MOA as (S)-ketamine (AMPA, mTOR, glutamate) with additional α2-adrenergic, 5-HT2A, sigma and imidazoline activity. It lacks ketamines estrogenic effects which is a plus. Agmatine is used as an all around drug potentiator and anti-addiction aid.

Thanks for the info Ally. We need some trailblazers. Makes me wonder how close we are to simply going up to a plant or tree, taking some and eating it and have it like ketamine. Sounds pretty close. That would excite a lot of people.

Would love to hear from people experimenting with arginine and getting cool effects.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Thanks for the info Ally. We need some trailblazers. Makes me wonder how close we are to simply going up to a plant or tree, taking some and eating it and have it like ketamine. Sounds pretty close. That would excite a lot of people.

Would love to hear from people experimenting with arginine and getting cool effects.

NP, and yes it's definitely something more people should know about.
Agmatine is sold OTC btw, it's quite popular as a sports supplement. I posted some reports on recreational & theraputic use of agmatine here. More on it's general properties here.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Thanks for the info Ally. We need some trailblazers. Makes me wonder how close we are to simply going up to a plant or tree, taking some and eating it and have it like ketamine. Sounds pretty close. That would excite a lot of people.

Would love to hear from people experimenting with arginine and getting cool effects.

The rumour s of dissociated kid s eating to much un-ripe Mulberry s popped up.
But was discredited afaik, i love Mulberry s, White/ Green or Purple.
Never experienced a high on the purple, but the children that devoured them.

Showed bizarre behaviour, imagine crazy kid s all bloody purple stained.
Coming at ya, bit like non slow motion Zombie s, maybe their is something in it.
That only effect kid s ?

 

[JackARoe]

That only effect kid s ?

Now that would be cool. A drug that only works on kids. How do we save them?

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Now that would be cool. A drug that only works on kids. How do we save them?

They were having a great time, all purple stained.
They seemed OK not in danger. How do we make it work for grown ups !

Cat s get a 15 minute Opioid high, along Hallucination s, smelling Catnip.
Would you save them. Or let em enjoy their high ?

 

[red22]

𝚀𝚞𝚘𝚝𝚎𝚜:

Other than the combos you listed, i have found rue to be really good with :

Ketamine

Memantine

Piracetam

Modafinil[ ✱ ]

St johns wort ( there is a slight risk tho so don't do it unless you know what you are doing)

Ketamine was the best one, although they were all combined with weed so im not sure how it will be like without weed.

MapHistorical4519, 2025-11-18, h‍ttps://old.reddit.com/r/harmalas/comments/1ozxihf/safe_combinations_with_harmalas/npg584p/

✱Case: Hypertensive Crisis Following Use of Armodafinil + MAOI. Steve Duffy. 2018-08-15. Medical Professionals Reference.


The harmalas altered the ketamine experience, it actually reduced the dissociation significantly and made it more psychedelic like, made me have some shroom like visuals, it was also extremely euphoric, like the ketamine and harmala combo made me become obssessed with the harmalas, its like the ketamine makes the harmalas stronger, not the other way around.

Memantine and harmala was more introspective and less euphoric but still very good, i think the lack of euphoria made it more spiritual.

Piracetam just potentiated the harmalas.

Modafinil and harmalas was very euphoric also, i think modafinil increased the rue visuals and added a dopaminergic feel to it, idk how to describe it accurately but i can tell you they have a really good synergy together.

MapHistorical4519, 2025-11-18, h‍ttps://old.reddit.com/r/harmalas/comments/1ozxihf/safe_combinations_with_harmalas/npj8js9/

 

[Pfafffed]

Harmala alkaloids are such interesting drugs.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Not the same but Ket with 4acodmt is awesome.
They go extremely well together with zero issues imo.

Im not a huge fan of Ket with NN-DMT or muhsrooms.
Could be nocebo but i get a weird feeling from mixing plant psychedelics with Ket.
Like they dont like me doing it lol.

But with synthethic tryptamines i have zero issues.
They feel like a hand in the glove so to speak.