Not sure where to post this, couldn't find a neurotransmitter forum, and pillreports sounded more fit than the others since pills include antidepressants and other drugs that work by adjusting neurotransmitter levels. There are a few issues I'd like to bring up regarding dopamine (which relates to coke, mdma, parnate and many other pills), since I'm probably a walking dopamine deficiency example. I type this in the hope of sorting some thoughts out, but it could be premature, but we'll see. Or, it may be just used as reference on the web, if nothing else, since the focus is probably not relevant to that many bluelighters, unless of course someone is able and/or likes to answer any of the questions.
One. I'm wondering, since small doses, probably 1/4 or maybe significantly less of a gram of coke, improved my sense of confidence and focus, whereas no serotonin reuptake inhibitor has ever managed to do one iota in those areas, that if there was an equivalent antidepressant that worked on dopamine instead of serotonin, would such a pill be able to produce a cumulative increase in dopamine, to the point of reaching the level of those small doses of coke, except long term? Or do antidepressants only increase neurotransmitter levels up to a certain point, but no more unless the dose is increased?
If they did have a cumulative effect on dopamine levels yet non-additive and non tolerance forming, I could definitely narrow it down to one that worked similarly to coke, but in an antidepressant medication manner.
Two. Given coke didn't make me high, as much as more closely as motivated as most everyone around me is virtually daily, at least about something, to do something basic, such as laundry (which these days is a dead, dry chore, vs pre clinical depression when I would've been able to find ways to entertain myself during such repetitive chores, thus not dreaded it to the point it required extensive pre planning and mental prepping), I'm certainly wondering, and this is something not really on the radar of mainstream research at present, if not suspecting that it's possible to have a mood related dopamine deficiency, even a severe one, and in such cases dopamine reuptake inhibitors aren't a one size fits all. So even antidepressants that increase dopamine may only be useful for those who have a certain level of dopamine deficiency, but beyond that, simply aren't strong enough. It'd be like with a diabetic who needs extra insulin which would be overkill for others.
So if we assume that dopamine levels in the brain's mood center are almost dried out, maybe stimulants like coke merely normalize their levels for their durations, as opposed to abnormally increase them. While I don't see coke as a viable long term drug regardless, I do wonder if this means that some of us would need a much higher dose than the clinical max dose of a dopamine reuptake inhibiting antidepressants. Perhaps I'd need a dose that equals a small dose of coke, since coke made a dent in terms of at least partially normalizing drive and motivation. Is it possible to achieve the equivalent of a small coke dose, on dopamine, with a regular antidepressant given their different mechanisms? At least with a very high, presumably still safe, dose?
Perhaps the mistake with the treatment resistant is we need much higher doses than others. And some of us need dri's, rather than ssri's.
Perhaps it may even be that using coke in a controlled, sparse manner might re sensitize the brain to dopamine (whilst overusing it has the opposite effect)? I mean, no current antidepressant, no talk therapy, no life event could restore it, so maybe it takes something as powerful as coke to 'teach it' back? Thinking that if you used just enough amount of coke with decent intervals between doses, the brain might find ways to produce more in the meantime. Other habits work that way, think someone that derives a sense of feel-good accomplishment from his or her work, or when engaging in a certain activity, the result is an overall better mood in between as well, thus those intermittent boosts in dopamine and/or endorphins made the brain produce them even in between. That's as opposed to addiction when the dosing is too frequent, too high and instead desensitizes the brain to dopamine, or endorphins in the case of opiates.
I do wonder though, if there isn't even one way to achieve near coke's effect on dopamine by non-addictive means, such as with L-dopa supplements, a high dose dri antidepressant, or something else? Not one? Since we're not speaking of alternative ways to get high, but merely of achieving dopamine levels to the point of feeling motivated.
Otherwise, I seem screwed. No ssri helps, the symptoms aren't such that talking is the answer, since it's a problem of the physiological brain, not the thinking mind/spirit. The onset of this depression was out of the ordinary brain changes, such as an apathy from hell (where even dramatic or even bizarre ideas would feel utterly indifferent and was actually quiet intriguing at first, to just plain not be fazed (not speaking of cruelty per se though, although things like wars or even the big bang felt just completely silly and was so convincing I felt others were silly to care about them or other things, that's not personality based), and a never-before-even-remotely-felt sense of total emotional emptiness (which was initially also encouraging since finally there was a change in experience, little fk did I know), followed by an inability to experience pleasure and a resulting severe boredom and desperate abstinence for pleasure and euphoria (which used to be achievable without drugs), followed by more or less desperation with time. Those aren't normal experiences that are triggered by thoughts, such as poor self-esteem or pessimism, which are about perspectives. You can't "think" total emotional emptiness or true apathy). It thus baffles me when some speak of going out, or exercising. Our brains tells us what we need, and at this level of anhedonia my brain tells me to chill as much as possible to reduce frustration and stress, eat sweets, eat other things that seem soothing at the moment, read sometimes, and sometimes go for a walk, i.e. physical activity, but never to do actual exercise, because surely I've exercised, including done physical labor to the point of perspiration, which didn't make any difference, but were rather more difficult to carry out due to these symptoms. And as if the depressed had never seen the sun...
Wonder if speed is better than coke for motivation? They're both stimulants. Not too different, right, so if coke had that effect on motivation and proactivity, would speed be better, especially since its effect is longer? What about mdma, is that a good drug to bring forth dead emotions? Not speaking of empathy though, which isn't depression related per se, more like sociability, overall enjoyment and such emotions, or is it, that mdma may not have that effect on someone clinically depressed, just like coke and alcohol don't cause euphoria, anymore? Think about it, long term drug abusers tend to become clinically depressed, thus the various drugs that used to make them feel wonderful don't have much of an effect on them, but rather normalize them from abstinence. If someone with clinical anhedonia had tried mdma, it'd be very interesting to hear.
One. I'm wondering, since small doses, probably 1/4 or maybe significantly less of a gram of coke, improved my sense of confidence and focus, whereas no serotonin reuptake inhibitor has ever managed to do one iota in those areas, that if there was an equivalent antidepressant that worked on dopamine instead of serotonin, would such a pill be able to produce a cumulative increase in dopamine, to the point of reaching the level of those small doses of coke, except long term? Or do antidepressants only increase neurotransmitter levels up to a certain point, but no more unless the dose is increased?
If they did have a cumulative effect on dopamine levels yet non-additive and non tolerance forming, I could definitely narrow it down to one that worked similarly to coke, but in an antidepressant medication manner.
Two. Given coke didn't make me high, as much as more closely as motivated as most everyone around me is virtually daily, at least about something, to do something basic, such as laundry (which these days is a dead, dry chore, vs pre clinical depression when I would've been able to find ways to entertain myself during such repetitive chores, thus not dreaded it to the point it required extensive pre planning and mental prepping), I'm certainly wondering, and this is something not really on the radar of mainstream research at present, if not suspecting that it's possible to have a mood related dopamine deficiency, even a severe one, and in such cases dopamine reuptake inhibitors aren't a one size fits all. So even antidepressants that increase dopamine may only be useful for those who have a certain level of dopamine deficiency, but beyond that, simply aren't strong enough. It'd be like with a diabetic who needs extra insulin which would be overkill for others.
So if we assume that dopamine levels in the brain's mood center are almost dried out, maybe stimulants like coke merely normalize their levels for their durations, as opposed to abnormally increase them. While I don't see coke as a viable long term drug regardless, I do wonder if this means that some of us would need a much higher dose than the clinical max dose of a dopamine reuptake inhibiting antidepressants. Perhaps I'd need a dose that equals a small dose of coke, since coke made a dent in terms of at least partially normalizing drive and motivation. Is it possible to achieve the equivalent of a small coke dose, on dopamine, with a regular antidepressant given their different mechanisms? At least with a very high, presumably still safe, dose?
Perhaps the mistake with the treatment resistant is we need much higher doses than others. And some of us need dri's, rather than ssri's.
Perhaps it may even be that using coke in a controlled, sparse manner might re sensitize the brain to dopamine (whilst overusing it has the opposite effect)? I mean, no current antidepressant, no talk therapy, no life event could restore it, so maybe it takes something as powerful as coke to 'teach it' back? Thinking that if you used just enough amount of coke with decent intervals between doses, the brain might find ways to produce more in the meantime. Other habits work that way, think someone that derives a sense of feel-good accomplishment from his or her work, or when engaging in a certain activity, the result is an overall better mood in between as well, thus those intermittent boosts in dopamine and/or endorphins made the brain produce them even in between. That's as opposed to addiction when the dosing is too frequent, too high and instead desensitizes the brain to dopamine, or endorphins in the case of opiates.
I do wonder though, if there isn't even one way to achieve near coke's effect on dopamine by non-addictive means, such as with L-dopa supplements, a high dose dri antidepressant, or something else? Not one? Since we're not speaking of alternative ways to get high, but merely of achieving dopamine levels to the point of feeling motivated.
Otherwise, I seem screwed. No ssri helps, the symptoms aren't such that talking is the answer, since it's a problem of the physiological brain, not the thinking mind/spirit. The onset of this depression was out of the ordinary brain changes, such as an apathy from hell (where even dramatic or even bizarre ideas would feel utterly indifferent and was actually quiet intriguing at first, to just plain not be fazed (not speaking of cruelty per se though, although things like wars or even the big bang felt just completely silly and was so convincing I felt others were silly to care about them or other things, that's not personality based), and a never-before-even-remotely-felt sense of total emotional emptiness (which was initially also encouraging since finally there was a change in experience, little fk did I know), followed by an inability to experience pleasure and a resulting severe boredom and desperate abstinence for pleasure and euphoria (which used to be achievable without drugs), followed by more or less desperation with time. Those aren't normal experiences that are triggered by thoughts, such as poor self-esteem or pessimism, which are about perspectives. You can't "think" total emotional emptiness or true apathy). It thus baffles me when some speak of going out, or exercising. Our brains tells us what we need, and at this level of anhedonia my brain tells me to chill as much as possible to reduce frustration and stress, eat sweets, eat other things that seem soothing at the moment, read sometimes, and sometimes go for a walk, i.e. physical activity, but never to do actual exercise, because surely I've exercised, including done physical labor to the point of perspiration, which didn't make any difference, but were rather more difficult to carry out due to these symptoms. And as if the depressed had never seen the sun...
Wonder if speed is better than coke for motivation? They're both stimulants. Not too different, right, so if coke had that effect on motivation and proactivity, would speed be better, especially since its effect is longer? What about mdma, is that a good drug to bring forth dead emotions? Not speaking of empathy though, which isn't depression related per se, more like sociability, overall enjoyment and such emotions, or is it, that mdma may not have that effect on someone clinically depressed, just like coke and alcohol don't cause euphoria, anymore? Think about it, long term drug abusers tend to become clinically depressed, thus the various drugs that used to make them feel wonderful don't have much of an effect on them, but rather normalize them from abstinence. If someone with clinical anhedonia had tried mdma, it'd be very interesting to hear.
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