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***US financial crisis/bail-out master thread***

aanallein said:
How is your post constructive at all? My point is that there isn't a black/white here. We had a non-fiat currency system for a long long time and it didn't make things any better for the lower classes (middle class didn't even really exist).

There's a lot of gray in economics in my opinion. I doubt the system will crumble personally. Its built entirely on confidence and at the end of the day we can throw all the invisible money we want around and we'll keep driving our cars and working our 9-5 to pay the bills because none of us is self sufficient any longer. There is no alternative like there was in 1929. We all gotta play ball with the system now cause we're tied to it so strongly.
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You mean the system is all based on debt... which it is.

Any system which a nation is tied to so strongly that it would cause society to virtually crumble, should it fail, is a poor system. Thus a retarded way to structure a nation, or economy.

Someday the day will come, when your so called "invisible money" will be worthless.

But yes, carry on with your retarded system, proles living in debts, slaves to the dollar.
 
I have a feeling it will fall.. but I'm sure there is something waiting there to take its place..something more sustainable?
 
9-5 to pay the bills because none of us is self sufficient any longer.
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Its true that right now I have to pay rent, drive to work etc. But really, I get my water from a well, my climate doesn't necessitate fossil fuel heating, and I'm surrounded by food producing fields. So...I could be totally self sufficient with out much changing. I know this isn't the case for most people though.
 
IamAnotherYou said:
I have a feeling it will fall.. but I'm sure there is something waiting there to take its place..something more sustainable?
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Anytime a civilization fails, there will always be someone to restart it, the promise of change, a few handouts, and the proletariat will welcome the new overlords, who will probably be the agents of teh current overlords.

Eventually America will either need to pay up (no cash = giving over tech, corps, land, military assets) or go to war. America is a nation of war.
 
but what if these economic events inspire change in a positive way like uniting...you might as well fight your neighbor if you want war..

like people starting their own little communities and doing like barter or trade...my services for yours...and forgetting about consumerism and materialism...
putting matters back to the local level

maybe i'm just being hopeful but i see life in positive ways...
 
IamAnotherYou said:
but what if these economic events inspire change in a positive way like uniting...you might as well fight your neighbor if you want war..

like people starting their own little communities and doing like barter or trade...my services for yours...and forgetting about consumerism and materialism...

maybe i'm just being hopeful but i see life in positive ways...
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It might happen in small isolated groups, but for society in generally? ha.

if everyone became a happy hippy and everything was cool, then some dick would get some guns and take shit over and continue the cycle of oppression.

There is no escape from the hell humans have created as a habitat.
 
IamAnotherYou said:
but what if these economic events inspire change in a positive way like uniting...you might as well fight your neighbor if you want war..

like people starting their own little communities and doing like barter or trade...my services for yours...and forgetting about consumerism and materialism...
putting matters back to the local level

maybe i'm just being hopeful but i see life in positive ways...
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no thanks to that. i like the internet, antibiotics, 5000 cals a day of delicious food and the other luxuries of the 21st century.
 
auto238367 said:
There is no escape from the hell humans have created as a habitat.
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You act like it was better before all of this. Life sucked before the industrial revolution for 99.99% of human beings. I like my life. Its comfortable and enjoyable. It wouldn't have been if I were without corrective lenses living in some fucked up part of the world with no access to antibiotics. I'd likely be dead by now in such an "ideal" situation.
 
Yeah I'd rather be the master my universe and co-create with the divine to manifest the reality i desired..but that's still some time away
 
aanallein said:
Life sucked before the industrial revolution for 99.99% of human beings.
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Looking back yes, but from their perspective it was much the same. They worried about epidemics & wars, we worry about the environment & WMD's. What does fluctuate over history is the ability of the people to affect change for themselves either through joining a raiding warparty or mass actions.

We've lost that ability now and it'll take a shitstorm to get it back.
 
aanallien: I just want to point out that reckless consumption is not mutually exclusive to antibiotics and contact lenses. We can have technology without destroying the planet and each other. We can have it both ways.
 
aanallein said:
You act like it was better before all of this. Life sucked before the industrial revolution for 99.99% of human beings. I like my life. Its comfortable and enjoyable. It wouldn't have been if I were without corrective lenses living in some fucked up part of the world with no access to antibiotics. I'd likely be dead by now in such an "ideal" situation.
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There has been a rise of a middle class yes, in some parts of the world. And yet the divide between the borgoisie and the prolitariat has become greater than ever.

Life is comfortable and enjoyable?

For who? The people that live in the American ghettos, the people of third world countries, the foreign laborers in Saudi Arabia?

Yes human civilization has changed and evolve, just as humans and technology have, and yet the fundamental flaws of our societies continue to exists, and be exploited by those with power.

The industrial revolution, amongst many things, has given the rise of progress at the cost of the limited resources of our planet, while we have been told everything is better. But is it really?
 
Yes it is to a huge degree. Even in parts of the world that suck the life expectancy is still 50+ yrs of age. Back before the industrial revolution and modern medicine/agriculture the life expectancy was low 30s or worse.

Imagine having no access to basic surgeries or medicine. Food poisoning, the flu, a broken bone, or a bad cavity could be debilitating or even fatal.

Things are steadily getting better but the problem is that the developing world is having a population explosion. If their populations level off like they have i the west we can see some more progress towards the bettering of all people. Til then its 2 steps forward, 1 step back.

I'm optimistic but I can appreciate the pessimism about the world today. Thinking that it was somehow "better" in the past though is simply delusional. Times were HARD before the 1900s. Even with as much access to information as we have, we simply cannot appreciate what it was really like to live before the modern era.
 
You guys are talking like we have an ultimate goal to reach. "Things are getting better," as if they haven't reached the "best" level yet. What will it take to get to that level?

Nothing; it will never happen.

We are animals. For whatever reason, we have been placed on this planet in this universe. We scheme up ways to validate our existence and our superiority over all other things- we do this because we can't face the simple truth: our lives are meaningless. A meteor could smash into the Earth before I finish this post, killing everyone and smashing the planet into 100 trillion pieces. What record would there be of human existence? None.

Of course you can call me a Nihilist, or a douche-bag... either one is fine. I'll just be contented in my little corner of the Earth, knowing that the only way to transcend this shit-storm of an existence is eventual death. Until then %)

now back to Politics!!!! 8o8o8o
 
aanallein said:
Yes it is to a huge degree. Even in parts of the world that suck the life expectancy is still 50+ yrs of age. Back before the industrial revolution and modern medicine/agriculture the life expectancy was low 30s or worse.
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I agree that things are better in most of the world than they were before the industrial revolution, but life expectancies in most of Africa are still in the 30s and 40s.

With the current economic problems and the gap between rich and poor increasing, things are likely to get worse.
 
^ Botswana had a 65 expectancy and AIDS cut it to 35.. so things were getting better in Africa before HIV/AIDS.. the civil wars, inflation, malaria, and cholera dont help tho..
 
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