• Current Events & Politics
    Welcome Guest
    Please read before posting:
    Forum Guidelines Bluelight Rules
  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

***US financial crisis/bail-out master thread***

^
The total package is potentially 500bn. But it's a 50 billion pound capital injection - so that's actual spending. Plus the potential for hundreds of billions of liquidity funding (the short-term loans and guarantees) - but that's not actual spending.

It's been a weird day - at about 1pm the FTSE was back to its starting point, but now it's lost about 4% again.
 
thanks for the article fengtu.

perhaps i'm just an indoctrinated capitalist, but it seems like this is all necessary for capitalism to continue. blahh, it makes me frustrated.

btw, we need to stop letting banks create money out of nothing, its bullshit.
 
Mehm said:
thanks for the article fengtu.

perhaps i'm just an indoctrinated capitalist, but it seems like this is all necessary for capitalism to continue. blahh, it makes me frustrated.

btw, we need to stop letting banks create money out of nothing, its bullshit.

I think that only happens in the US. Over here, our money is backed by gold reserves.
 
fengtau said:
I think that only happens in the US. Over here, our money is backed by gold reserves.


I think you are the exception then. Most countries only have the government (no gold etc.) to back up their money.
 
The dow is down to almost 8700$!!! Good to see the shit they are trying fail abysmally...
 
8,579.19 at close...at this rate we'll be at the lowest level of 2002 (~7700) inside a week or two.

Excerpt:

Dow plunges 679 to fall to lowest level in 5 years
By TIM PARADIS, AP Business Writer
3 minutes ago

NEW YORK - Stocks plunged in the final hour of trading Thursday, sending the Dow Jones industrial average down 679 points — more than 7 percent — to its lowest level in five years after a major credit ratings agency said it might cut its rating on General Motors Corp.

ADVERTISEMENT

The Standard & Poor's 500 index also fell more than 7 percent.

The declines came on the one-year anniversary of the closing highs of the Dow and the S&P. The Dow has lost 5,585 points, or 39.4 percent, since closing at 14,198 on Oct. 9, 2007. The S&P 500, meanwhile, is off 655 points, or 41.9 percent, since recording its high of 1,565.15.

U.S. stock market paper losses totaled $872 billion Thursday and the value of shares overall has tumbled a stunning $8.33 trillion since last year's high. That's based on preliminary figures measured by the Dow Jones Wilshire 5000 Composite Index, which tracks 5,000 U.S.-based companies' stocks and represents almost all stocks traded in America.

link:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_bi_st_ma_re/wall_street
 
The continuing credit freeze is going to start showing up. States are laying off employees and the budgetary problems will continue if things don't change. What a mess. The schadenfreude for "fat cats" and "Wall Street" will end when people start getting fired.
 
Last edited:
Final-hour avalanche sell off on the North American markets today signalling armageddon and we're not even half way through October. Looks like it could be make it or break it time next week. If you see the faces of business channel talking heads turn ashen for a second time, like they did last Monday, start worrying. Even if you feel you currently have a secure job.

So, is there anyone out there who can say "$700 billion" with a straight face still?


At this point the risk of an imminent stock market crack – like the one-day collapse of 20% plus in US stock prices in 1987 – cannot be ruled out as the financial system is breaking down, panic and lack of confidence in any counterparty is sharply rising and the investors have totally lost faith in the ability of policy authorities to control this meltdown.

This disconnect between more and more aggressive policy actions and easings and greater and greater strains in financial market is scary. When Bear Stearns’ creditors were bailed out to the tune of $30 bn in March the rally in equity, money and credit markets lasted eight weeks; when in July the US Treasury announced legislation to bail out the mortgage giants Fannie and Freddie the rally lasted four weeks; when the actual $200 billion rescue of these firms was undertaken and their $6 trillion liabilities taken over by the US government the rally lasted one day and by the next day the panic has moved to Lehman’s collapse; when AIG was bailed out to the tune of $85 billion the market did not even rally for a day and instead fell 5%. Next when the $700 billion US rescue package was passed by the US Senate and House markets fell another 7% in two days as there was no confidence in this flawed plan and the authorities. Next as authorities in the US and abroad took even more radical policy actions between October 6th and October 9th (payment of interest on reserves, doubling of the liquidity support of banks, extension of credit to the seized corporate sector, guarantees of bank deposits, plans to recapitalize banks, coordinated monetary policy easing, etc.) the stock markets and the credit markets and the money markets fell further and further and at an accelerated rates day after day all week including another 7% fall in U.S. equities today.

When in markets that are clearly way oversold even the most radical policy actions don’t provide rallies or relief to market participants you know that you are one step away from a market crack and a systemic financial sector and corporate sector collapse. A vicious circle of deleveraging, asset collapses, margin calls, cascading falls in asset prices well below falling fundamentals and panic is now underway.

At this point severe damage is done and one cannot rule out a systemic collapse and a global depression. It will take a significant change in leadership of economic policy and very radical, coordinated policy actions among all advanced and emerging market economies to avoid this economic and financial disaster. Urgent and immediate necessary actions that need to be done globally (with some variants across countries depending on the severity of the problem and the overall resources available to the sovereigns) include:

- another rapid round of policy rate cuts of the order of at least 150 basis points on average globally;

- a temporary blanket guarantee of all deposits while a triage between insolvent financial institutions that need to be shut down and distressed but solvent institutions that need to be partially nationalized with injections of public capital is made;

- a rapid reduction of the debt burden of insolvent households preceded by a temporary freeze on all foreclosures;

- massive and unlimited provision of liquidity to solvent financial institutions;

- public provision of credit to the solvent parts of the corporate sector to avoid a short-term debt refinancing crisis for solvent but illiquid corporations and small businesses;

- a massive direct government fiscal stimulus packages that includes public works, infrastructure spending, unemployment benefits, tax rebates to lower income households and provision of grants to strapped and crunched state and local government;

- a rapid resolution of the banking problems via triage, public recapitalization of financial institutions and reduction of the debt burden of distressed households and borrowers;

- an agreement between lender and creditor countries running current account surpluses and borrowing and debtor countries running current account deficits to maintain an orderly financing of deficits and a recycling of the surpluses of creditors to avoid a disorderly adjustment of such imbalances.

At this point anything short of these radical and coordinated actions may lead to a market crash, a global systemic financial meltdown and to a global depression. At this stage central banks that are usually supposed to be the "lenders of last resort" need to become the "lenders of first and only resort" as, under conditions of panic and total loss of confidence, no one in the private sector is lending to anyone else since counterparty risk is extreme. And fiscal authorities that usually are spenders and insurers of last resort need to temporarily become the spenders and insurers of first resort. The fiscal costs of these actions will be large but the economic and fiscal costs of inaction would be of a much larger and severe magnitude. Thus, the time to act is now as all the policy officials of the world are meeting this weekend in Washington at the IMF and World Bank annual meetings.

rgemonitor

Tomorrow setting up to be Heartburn Friday. In Asia, it is currently Diarrhea Day.
 
Here comes the last available magic straw (something they should have done right from the start! Something Canada should have done from the start too, but I'm sure they were persuaded otherwise, especially in light of them having the most sound banking system in the world).

U.S. Weighs Backing Bank Debt
Friday October 10, 3:26 am ET
By Damian Paletta, Carrick Mollenkamp and John D. McKinnon

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. is weighing two dramatic steps to repair ailing financial markets: guaranteeing billions of dollars in bank debt and temporarily insuring all U.S. bank deposits.

If the two moves come to fruition they would mark the government's most extensive intervention yet in the financial system, as officials ponder increasingly far-reaching measures to stem the sprawling crisis.
.
.
Under the U.K.'s recently announced plan, which it is now pitching to the G-7 members, the British government would guarantee up to £250 billion ($432 billion) in bank debt maturing up to 36 months. The British concept to expand its proposal to other countries has a lot of support from Wall Street and is being pored over by U.S. officials, according to people familiar with the matter.

White House spokesman Tony Fratto said the U.S. "is reviewing the idea and discussing it with our British counterparts."
.
.
The U.K.'s decision to guarantee bank debt sparked talk that the U.S. would need to make the same move. On Thursday, the three-month dollar London interbank offered rate, or Libor, hit 4.75%. On the Friday before Lehman filed for bankruptcy protection, the three-month rate was 2.81875%. A surging Libor could exacerbate larger economic problems because many mortgages are tied to rates that fall or rise depending on Libor.

full article: Yahoo/WSJ

Nothing left after this.
 
m885 said:
The continuing credit freeze is going to start showing up. States are laying off employees and the budgetary problems will continue if things don't change. What a mess. The schadenfreude for "fat cats" and "Wall Street" will end when people start getting fired.

Not to mention that most of the people yhave already lost their jobs, their companies no longer exist, and the whole investment bank model has ended.

That article that SA posts (in post #169) is interesting, but two points: it's probably impossible to guarantee everything; especially in some small countries with big banks - Luxembourg of course, but even France and Germany and the UK. Second point is that the central banks are already the lenders of first resort: banks are simply not lending to each other, and haven't done so for several weeks.

Edit: as I type, the FTSE is down 10% in the first ten minutes. (note that this is even with the UK doing many of the things that the US should be doing).

Welcome to the Greater Depression. Good luck all.
 
Infinite Jest said:
it's probably impossible to guarantee everything
I agree, IJ, and I believe everyone knows the maths, but it's mostly for psychological effect and reassurance (and everyone knows that too, but still wants to hear it out loud).

Dow futures, while in negative territory, are a hundred points better than they were late last night. [edit: never mind, they're back to where they were]

Look on the bright side. As I always say, "things could be better, but they could definitely be worse": Zimbabwe inflation hits 231 million percent
 
Last edited:
If anyone has seen "The Perfect Storm" with George Clooney, there's a scene that's a good parallel to this situation. Clooney is battling through this terrible storm and at one point there's a break in the clouds and the sun comes out. Within seconds, the weather turns again and the storm comes on even stronger.

There's no break from this crisis.
 
SA: yes, I think you're right. There has to be some coordination, though.

The Irish and the Germans did a lot of harm to Europe with their unilateral guarantees - the effect is to move funds into their banks, risking the health of other banks. Hopefully the EU can agree on joint action quickly.
 
Infinite Jest said:
SA: yes, I think you're right. There has to be some coordination, though.

The Irish and the Germans did a lot of harm to Europe with their unilateral guarantees - the effect is to move funds into their banks, risking the health of other banks. Hopefully the EU can agree on joint action quickly.
IJ, I agree that they needed to act in unison, but don't fault them for acting first when survival was the name of the game.

On a brighter note, while the broader indices are still tanking or fluctuating, many individual stocks which have been trying to find a floor have over the last couple of days either found one, or are actually seeing buyers return. Could be an encouraging sign if this trend holds next week.
 
so since i'm already a college grad ditch digger..does that mean i get to be foreman of the college grad ditch diggers?
 
SA: yeah, bit of a prisoners' dilemma, huh?

Today's papers report G7 agreeing on a global plan. Buried at the bottom of the article 'if [the UK] plan fails, wholesale nationalisation of Britain's banking system is the only alternative'. (!)
 
Top