Beenhead
Bluelight Crew
DigitalDuality said:
i couldn't say it better myself.
That is hilarious!
***US financial crisis/bail-out master thread***
- Thread starter Changed
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That is hilarious!
SA
Bluelight Crew
^ meant for ernestrome
That was an excellent commentary!
The people have finally started to wake up and are beginning to realise that you cannot have a revolution without a revolution. People wanted a revolution, but wanted to go on enjoying the frills and pampered comforts which they got so accustomed to. They did not want to live through the period of sacrifice while fighting to recapture what is theirs by right.
Who knows, this may be just a momentary awakening, or the people may have actually decided that enough is enough and resolve to a period of pain as necessary, while pushing for long term corporate reform and immediate and short term survival of the people.
DD that was funny.
That was an excellent commentary!
The people have finally started to wake up and are beginning to realise that you cannot have a revolution without a revolution. People wanted a revolution, but wanted to go on enjoying the frills and pampered comforts which they got so accustomed to. They did not want to live through the period of sacrifice while fighting to recapture what is theirs by right.
Who knows, this may be just a momentary awakening, or the people may have actually decided that enough is enough and resolve to a period of pain as necessary, while pushing for long term corporate reform and immediate and short term survival of the people.
DD that was funny.
SA
Bluelight Crew
"effects"? What do we call the past 12-24 months? 700 billion is nowhere close to what is required to "save" the banks, if that's what they really intended to do with it. Some banks will fail either way. Wiping bad debt from banks' books using taxpayer money is *not* the only possible way to get the banks to start trusting each other enough to start lending to each other again.m885 said:
m885
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 27, 2003
- Messages
- 8,586
I was speaking of the immediate effects of the death of this bill. Without credit, Main Street is going to feel this soon. Banks are starting to collapse in Europe as well. It'll be interesting to see how the Asian markets do overnight. This image might be more fitting:
SA
Bluelight Crew
The relief felt from the passing of this bill in its current form would have lasted all of three days. Again, let's look at the history of the past 12-24 months. They tried and are still trying to pass this using nothing but scare tactics. Doing the maths here immediately invalidates this as a solution with any lasting effects.m885 said:
I'm am jubilant that our law makers didn't pass this bs. Let the banks fail and new ones emerge. We spent our selves into the ground and now its time to pay back the debts we owe.
If you go into credit card debt and decide to pay it off, what do you do? Don't go out to eat, don't get that coffee, don't buy that new car. We need to now do this. btw, greedy bankers who's greed already screwed us can piss off. New credit markets will instantly emerge. Supply and demand lives on.
As for the stock market goes...looks like a great time to buy. M885 (bolded for the multiple questions I have asked of you which you have not replied), I'll ask again, I thought you were a free market capitalist, what gives? Suddenly had a change of heart now that your 401k is in danger?
If you go into credit card debt and decide to pay it off, what do you do? Don't go out to eat, don't get that coffee, don't buy that new car. We need to now do this. btw, greedy bankers who's greed already screwed us can piss off. New credit markets will instantly emerge. Supply and demand lives on.
As for the stock market goes...looks like a great time to buy. M885 (bolded for the multiple questions I have asked of you which you have not replied), I'll ask again, I thought you were a free market capitalist, what gives? Suddenly had a change of heart now that your 401k is in danger?
^ lol.
this is a touching display of bipartisan cooperation at least
alasdair
this is a touching display of bipartisan cooperation at least
alasdair
m885
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 27, 2003
- Messages
- 8,586
Mehm said:
Ideology should go out the window in dire situations. This is way, way beyond coffee and cars. Without functional credit markets, businesses won't have the liquidity needed for inventory and payroll. We're talking about massive increases in unemployment and business failures. As for your question, I don't have a 401k- just a lot of student loans. This mess isn't limited to stock markets, Main Street is going to feel the pain as well. Banks don't fail in isolation, people get hurt.
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The Rich Are Staging a Coup This Morning ...a message from Michael Moore
Friends,
Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.
No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is:
"Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.
"Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.
"At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.
"Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury's proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions."
Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to "consult" in the bailout.
The problem is, nobody truly knows what this "collapse" is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn't know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can't figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone.
And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Falling for whom? NOTHING in this "bailout" package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance.
Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What's this got to do with the Wall Street collapse?
It has everything to do with it. This so-called "collapse" was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people's home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it's because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn't afford. Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened.
This bailout's mission is to protect the obscene amount of wealth that has been accumulated in the last eight years. It's to protect the top shareholders who own and control corporate America. It's to make sure their yachts and mansions and "way of life" go uninterrupted while the rest of America suffers and struggles to pay the bills. Let the rich suffer for once. Let them pay for the bailout. We are spending 400 million dollars a day on the war in Iraq. Let them end the war immediately and save us all another half-trillion dollars!
I have to stop writing this and you have to stop reading it. They are staging a financial coup this morning in our country. They are hoping Congress will act fast before they stop to think, before we have a chance to stop them ourselves. So stop reading this and do something -- NOW! Here's what you can do immediately:
1. Call or e-mail Senator Obama. Tell him he does not need to be sitting there trying to help prop up Bush and Cheney and the mess they've made. Tell him we know he has the smarts to slow this thing down and figure out what's the best route to take. Tell him the rich have to pay for whatever help is offered. Use the leverage we have now to insist on a moratorium on home foreclosures, to insist on a move to universal health coverage, and tell him that we the people need to be in charge of the economic decisions that affect our lives, not the barons of Wall Street.
2. Take to the streets. Participate in one of the hundreds of quickly-called demonstrations that are taking place all over the country (especially those near Wall Street and DC).
3. Call your Representative in Congress and your Senators. (click here to find their phone numbers). Tell them what you told Senator Obama.
When you screw up in life, there is hell to pay. Each and every one of you reading this knows that basic lesson and has paid the consequences of your actions at some point. In this great democracy, we cannot let there be one set of rules for the vast majority of hard-working citizens, and another set of rules for the elite, who, when they screw up, are handed one more gift on a silver platter. No more! Not again!
Yours,
Michael Moore
[email protected]
MichaelMoore.com
P.S. Having read further the details of this bailout bill, you need to know you are being lied to. They talk about how they will prevent golden parachutes. It says NOTHING about what these executives and fat cats will make in SALARY. According to Rep. Brad Sherman of California, these top managers will continue to receive million-dollar-a-month paychecks under this new bill. There is no direct ownership given to the American people for the money being handed over. Foreign banks and investors will be allowed to receive billion-dollar handouts. A large chunk of this $700 billion is going to be given directly to Chinese and Middle Eastern banks. There is NO guarantee of ever seeing that money again.
P.P.S. From talking to people I know in DC, they say the reason so many Dems are behind this is because Wall Street this weekend put a gun to their heads and said either turn over the $700 billion or the first thing we'll start blowing up are the pension funds and 401(k)s of your middle class constituents. The Dems are scared they may make good on their threat. But this is not the time to back down or act like the typical Democrat we have witnessed for the last eight years. The Dems handed a stolen election over to Bush. The Dems gave Bush the votes he needed to invade a sovereign country. Once they took over Congress in 2007, they refused to pull the plug on the war. And now they have been cowered into being accomplices in the crime of the century. You have to call them now and say "NO!" If we let them do this, just imagine how hard it will be to get anything good done when President Obama is in the White House. THESE DEMOCRATS ARE ONLY AS STRONG AS THE BACKBONE WE GIVE THEM. CALL CONGRESS NOW.
--
alasdair
Friends,
Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.
No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is:
"Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.
"Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.
"At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.
"Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury's proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions."
Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to "consult" in the bailout.
The problem is, nobody truly knows what this "collapse" is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn't know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can't figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone.
And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Falling for whom? NOTHING in this "bailout" package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance.
Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What's this got to do with the Wall Street collapse?
It has everything to do with it. This so-called "collapse" was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people's home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it's because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn't afford. Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened.
This bailout's mission is to protect the obscene amount of wealth that has been accumulated in the last eight years. It's to protect the top shareholders who own and control corporate America. It's to make sure their yachts and mansions and "way of life" go uninterrupted while the rest of America suffers and struggles to pay the bills. Let the rich suffer for once. Let them pay for the bailout. We are spending 400 million dollars a day on the war in Iraq. Let them end the war immediately and save us all another half-trillion dollars!
I have to stop writing this and you have to stop reading it. They are staging a financial coup this morning in our country. They are hoping Congress will act fast before they stop to think, before we have a chance to stop them ourselves. So stop reading this and do something -- NOW! Here's what you can do immediately:
1. Call or e-mail Senator Obama. Tell him he does not need to be sitting there trying to help prop up Bush and Cheney and the mess they've made. Tell him we know he has the smarts to slow this thing down and figure out what's the best route to take. Tell him the rich have to pay for whatever help is offered. Use the leverage we have now to insist on a moratorium on home foreclosures, to insist on a move to universal health coverage, and tell him that we the people need to be in charge of the economic decisions that affect our lives, not the barons of Wall Street.
2. Take to the streets. Participate in one of the hundreds of quickly-called demonstrations that are taking place all over the country (especially those near Wall Street and DC).
3. Call your Representative in Congress and your Senators. (click here to find their phone numbers). Tell them what you told Senator Obama.
When you screw up in life, there is hell to pay. Each and every one of you reading this knows that basic lesson and has paid the consequences of your actions at some point. In this great democracy, we cannot let there be one set of rules for the vast majority of hard-working citizens, and another set of rules for the elite, who, when they screw up, are handed one more gift on a silver platter. No more! Not again!
Yours,
Michael Moore
[email protected]
MichaelMoore.com
P.S. Having read further the details of this bailout bill, you need to know you are being lied to. They talk about how they will prevent golden parachutes. It says NOTHING about what these executives and fat cats will make in SALARY. According to Rep. Brad Sherman of California, these top managers will continue to receive million-dollar-a-month paychecks under this new bill. There is no direct ownership given to the American people for the money being handed over. Foreign banks and investors will be allowed to receive billion-dollar handouts. A large chunk of this $700 billion is going to be given directly to Chinese and Middle Eastern banks. There is NO guarantee of ever seeing that money again.
P.P.S. From talking to people I know in DC, they say the reason so many Dems are behind this is because Wall Street this weekend put a gun to their heads and said either turn over the $700 billion or the first thing we'll start blowing up are the pension funds and 401(k)s of your middle class constituents. The Dems are scared they may make good on their threat. But this is not the time to back down or act like the typical Democrat we have witnessed for the last eight years. The Dems handed a stolen election over to Bush. The Dems gave Bush the votes he needed to invade a sovereign country. Once they took over Congress in 2007, they refused to pull the plug on the war. And now they have been cowered into being accomplices in the crime of the century. You have to call them now and say "NO!" If we let them do this, just imagine how hard it will be to get anything good done when President Obama is in the White House. THESE DEMOCRATS ARE ONLY AS STRONG AS THE BACKBONE WE GIVE THEM. CALL CONGRESS NOW.
--
alasdair
SA
Bluelight Crew
If one looks closely at the tanking global markets today and this morning overseas, one will realise that most of the tanking is not caused by banking or financial stocks, but by panic selling of everything else (commodities mostly), the panic arising from the tales of imminent horror if the bill doesn't pass as spread by the media.
And now the panicked world will apply pressure on the Americans for the U.S. to bail them all out. Fear mongering, fright spreading, scare tactics at their best. This "pass the bill, or the fate of the world rests on your shoulders" is almost as good as "if you're not with us in approving this WMD war, you're against us and are with the terrorists". If Australia or any other country is sticking their nose in domestic U.S. affairs, they should offer to have their own citizens and taxpayers share the financial burden of this No Banker Left Behind relief package along with the American people who are destined to do so one way or another. What's that? "No thanks"? I didn't think so.
America may end up like Canada, after all is said and done, with a handful of Big Banks instead of dozens upon dozens of big, medium, small and no-name banks of years past. Seems to work well in Canada.
Again, it's not rocket science. No one I know is against a $700 billion relief package. Most people I know are against this $700 billion relief package. Rewrite it to benefit not just the bankers and the lawyers and you'll have a winner. There will still be pain, but there will also be healing, real healing, not this pretend "hallelujah! we're saved! praised be the Bush" crap which will last barely a week and make the rich even richer, while pissing on the people and making them pay for the whole spectacle in the process.
Global pressure on US lawmakers
Sep 30, 2008 2:34 PM
Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has called for global pressure on US lawmakers to convince them to put the world's economy ahead of the presidential race and pass a $US700 billion bailout package.
source
Sep 30, 2008 2:34 PM
Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has called for global pressure on US lawmakers to convince them to put the world's economy ahead of the presidential race and pass a $US700 billion bailout package.
source
And now the panicked world will apply pressure on the Americans for the U.S. to bail them all out. Fear mongering, fright spreading, scare tactics at their best. This "pass the bill, or the fate of the world rests on your shoulders" is almost as good as "if you're not with us in approving this WMD war, you're against us and are with the terrorists". If Australia or any other country is sticking their nose in domestic U.S. affairs, they should offer to have their own citizens and taxpayers share the financial burden of this No Banker Left Behind relief package along with the American people who are destined to do so one way or another. What's that? "No thanks"? I didn't think so.
America may end up like Canada, after all is said and done, with a handful of Big Banks instead of dozens upon dozens of big, medium, small and no-name banks of years past. Seems to work well in Canada.
Again, it's not rocket science. No one I know is against a $700 billion relief package. Most people I know are against this $700 billion relief package. Rewrite it to benefit not just the bankers and the lawyers and you'll have a winner. There will still be pain, but there will also be healing, real healing, not this pretend "hallelujah! we're saved! praised be the Bush" crap which will last barely a week and make the rich even richer, while pissing on the people and making them pay for the whole spectacle in the process.
SA
Bluelight Crew
M, when I said "Rewrite it to benefit not just the bankers and the lawyers", I wasn't talking about executive pay (unless you consider lawyers executives 
). (Or, unless you were responding to Michael Moore)
). (Or, unless you were responding to Michael Moore)
Belisarius
Bluelighter
I remain very much torn on this issue. My heart is 100% against the bail-out; I don't see why millions of fiscally-responsible Americans should pay for the short-sighted fuckups of the few. My *head*, though, sees the bail-out as better than nothing, and I think the failure to pass it is a bad moon rising. I wouldn't be surprised to see this go to vote three times, and these days an awful lot can happen in a week.
m885
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 27, 2003
- Messages
- 8,586
^Lol, I was talking about Michael Moore. The cries about "fat cat bankers" could be in pamphlets for fringe leftist groups. The investment banks have collapsed and more banks are to follow, it's beating a dead horse. Tens of thousands of employees of these companies are out of work.
Maybe the bill failed because it was trying to do too much. Get the deal done and deal with the rest in other bills immediately. Barney Frank and the rest of the Democrats involved in this aren't "fat cat" bankers and they strenuously pushed for this. The hatred of Bush and Republicans in general is polluting an extremely bipartisan effort.
Maybe the bill failed because it was trying to do too much. Get the deal done and deal with the rest in other bills immediately. Barney Frank and the rest of the Democrats involved in this aren't "fat cat" bankers and they strenuously pushed for this. The hatred of Bush and Republicans in general is polluting an extremely bipartisan effort.
Belisarius
Bluelighter
With all due respect M885, with 40% of the Democrats voting against it, I see this as thoroughly bipartisan opposition. That the Republicans voted strongly against their own President says a great deal.
m885
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 27, 2003
- Messages
- 8,586
Fair point, but what I'm wondering is if this was genuine opposition. I saw an analysis of the vote on the news earlier: those who faced a tough election in the past 4 years or are facing a tough election now voted no. Representatives in safe seats voted yes. It's entirely possible that these members were covering their own asses instead of doing what needs to be done. This was a failure of leadership. The Republicans failed to deliver the votes everyone thought they had, Pelosi failed to keep her partisanship in check and both presidential candidates did nothing to get their party on board.
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foundationx4
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2006
- Messages
- 310
this isnt the best news for canada. we need strong american economy to purchase goods.
Infinite Jest
Bluelight Crew
alasdairm/Micheal Moore said:
1. Regrettable, but not surprising. Just make sure the lobbying fails.
2. Presumably Moore doesn't want anyone to manage the assets? That doesn't seem too smart.
3. Yes. That's the whole point of this entire issue. No-one is able to accurately estimate how much banks' liabilities are - so they're not lending to each other. Of course Paulson can't analyse it.
4. Coming from MM this is kinda hypocritical. But isn't the US already in recession?
5. Right. So if foreigners lend something to Americans, they don't deserve to be repaid? Thanks Mike.