University vs. College -or- Degrees vs. Diplomas

[Cyc]

I am a College student currently finishing my 2nd diploma program. Next year I'm going for my 3rd. When I get out of school, I will have 3 diplomas in practical and theoretical studies for a total run of five years. I feel like I've (so far) taken a lot from College. To be honest, I wouldn't choose University for the world.

So, what I want to know - is why most people in this forum opted, instead, for University.

Is University somehow better than College? Do employers look at someone with an undergrad degree and say, "Well this person can recite popular authors from the 18th century" and hire them based on that?

Does 4-8 years studying something like History, or Sociology qualify you for that many good jobs?

It just seems to me like a lot of people go to University as some rite of passage into the corporate world. Not taking into account specialized studies like law, or medicine, I don't see how something as vague as archaeology, psychology, or criminology really apply to many real-world jobs that are available. What kind of employer has the money to hire someone to recite theory and minutia?

It just seems to me like if you want to actually help people, get into human services. If you want to fight crime, go to a police academy. I mean, you'll have to do all these things anyways - so why the University?

Don't get me wrong, I find a lot of these subjects fascinating - I have no problem studying them as a hobby or out of sheer interest; but when I look at something like school, I want it to teach me something a textbook can't. I don't just mean forcing me to write essays, or study for tests, but actually take me through a process of doing something constructive. I want it to give me a feel for what I might be doing after graduation, y'know?

Honestly, if I ever lost a good job to someone simply because they took some vaguely related Uni. course, I'd feel cheated.

So anyways, that's my side - I've told you the benefits of College, as I see it. Now you tell me the benefits of University and how it measures up.

 

[fizzygirl]

You're going to have a lot of people confused up front on the basic differences between college & university (per usual) because it's all the same here. For the sake of the argument, college is more like the u.s. technical schools?

Does 4-8 years studying something like History, or Sociology qualify you for that many good jobs?

Well that depends on what you want to do....if you're wanting to work in some sort of social services or 'helping people' type of job, they like for you to have a degree in some area of psych or soc or *something* where you study about the best ways to deal with this. You can get the job with just experience, but a degree substitutes for a few years of experience. 8 years? Yes 8 years will qualify you for a lot of jobs that you couldn't get otherwise -- especially those with research or writing requirements.

It just seems to me like a lot of people go to University as some rite of passage into the corporate world. Not taking into account specialized studies like law, or medicine, I don't see how something as vague as archaeology, psychology, or criminology really apply to many real-world jobs that are available. What kind of employer has the money to hire someone to recite theory and minutia?

Think about the kind of classes that are taken in those areas you see as 'specialized'...law and medicine. Well in those you have some hands on practice, some experts to share their own failures and successes and people to guide your way. You have professional conferences where you can share your research and have others share theirs, etc. You get the same sort of things in archaeology, psychology, and criminology. There may not be *as many* jobs out there, but there are the jobs out there that specific people want. As for pay...if someone is hiring a person to do an archaeology job, they'd want proof that the person has learned how to handle things carefully, has been on a dig, has learned the background of the things they are working on, instead of just shown up to the job. I think it's taking things for granted to assume that these areas of study involve only book learning. Most involve some form of internship or practical application of the things studied.

It just seems to me like if you want to actually help people, get into human services. If you want to fight crime, go to a police academy. I mean, you'll have to do all these things anyways - so why the University?

As said before, you can do these without a degree, but you get hired at a higher level (at least here), and paid more and promoted more quickly with a degree.

 

[wanderer21]

I was told that the difference between a "college" and an "university", as in Villanova University v. Boston College, was that a university provides phD programs for their undergraduate and graduate degrees whereas a College does not. Basically it means that you can finish your entire scholastic career at a University and at a college you cannot.

 

[hashish2020]

^
its different in Canada and the UK

 

[Cyc]

Thanks for clearing some stuff up for me, fizzy. Much appreciated.

Ok, just to clear things up - When I speak of College, it's like technician/technology programs, (2-3 years respectively) like an electrical engineer, computer technologist or maybe something like human services, child & youth worker, travel/tourism, etc.

I mean, these are jobs that actually exist in the community. There's a tangible need for a computer expert and for someone who can draw electrical blueprints. There's a need for someone who can co-ordinate programs for school kids.

What do History majors do?

 

[PGTips]

Here in the UK a Tech college (or one of the more recently upgrades to university status polytechnics) would offer more vocational hands on things as you mention Kyk, travel/tourism, electrician, plumber, youth worker, community worker etc. These are usually in the form of "BTEC" or "GNVQ" courses (and a few others I forget). They are not as academically orientated as a degree would be, but instead concentrate on more immediately applicable skills, and can vary in length from just 1 year to 3 or 4 depending on complexity and how many "nationally recognised qualifications" you might require (I imagine an electrician needs more than a travel student).

Degrees here are about the same as degrees elsewhere in the world, 3 or 4 years of lectures, projects etc etc. More academically orientated and perhaps in some cases not very applicable to the world of work in a direct manner (ie using what your degree taught you in a job).

Is one worth more than the other? Depends what your aims are in life. The UK is critically short of skilled labour like plumbers and electricians and a good one of them can earn more than most office managers! At the same time, we're also short on those who have science degrees and more and more government funding is being put into those areas (good news for me ). Those 2 paths end up at very different destinations, but both are good places to be.

 

[fizzygirl]

Jobs for history majors

I think one of the big differences between a lot of tech school/job relationships and university/job relationships is that with technical programs there is generally 1 job out there you're looking for, or one category of job. If you go for "radiology assistant" you're going to look for that job. If you go to school for a history major, it's much more open, but you have to put that extra effort into specializing and deciding which path you're going to take and sell yourself that way.

 

[Cyc]

I don't really have anything to add, but I wanted to say thanks for the interesting reading. It helped me put things into perspective.

 

[physix]

in the US, i think there is a distinct push to go more towards
the following definition:

The difference between a college and a university is that a college just offers a collection of degrees in one specific area, while a university is a collection of colleges. When you go to a university you are going to be graduating from one of their colleges, such as the business college. As to which is better, it depends on what you want. Single colleges tend to be smaller while universities are bigger, but uni's are better known.

currently, in informal speech, someone in Harvard University would
say 'i'm in college'... (actually, they may say "oh,i go to Harvard", but
that's neither here nor there )


so, altho the rest of the world tends to call COLLEGE what the
u.s calls "vocational/technical/trade school", you can find that
anyone in the u.s may call "university" college... Typically, larger
higher education facilities will call themselves universities and
the smaller ones will say "college".

If a u.s "college" was a "junior college" (a smaller more 'local'
college that people tend to use as a stepping stone to a bigger
college/university) and was "upgraded", they'll generally refer
to themselves as a college... IVY TECH Junior College 'upgraded'
itself to IVY TECH STATE COLLEGE once it got more programs and
stronger ties to Butler University and IU and IUPUI.

but then you have exceptions, like Dartmouth College which is
a huge higher ed facility and would normally be refered to as
"university" but it called "college"... but it's not like Harvard
College, which is harvard University's undergrad school... and
you have VINCENNES UNIVERSITY which is hella small, comparitively,
but its considered a university.

so, like everything, the u.s is grey in terms of labels...

assuming that "college" for kyk is like trade school / vocational
school here and "university" is for traditional higher ed facilities,
you do tend to have alot of folks go the route of trade schools
b-c they offer 'hands on' training... and they even go so far
as to have job finding programs.... this is part of their appeal:
"less theory ... more hands on"

here's the problem:

ITT TECH has a graphics program... as a pre-cursor, you get
about 18 months of CAD (computer aided drafting)... then
you are taught some graphics programs outside of CAD.

theory isn't dealt with
design issues aren't dealt with extensively
concepts aren't dealt with specifically

so, you have people who can't migrate over to
other programs as well ... or you get people who
can DO things in graphic programs, but they can't
originate very well...

or you have computer programmers that know JavaScript,
but they don't know the basics that would allow them
to code in Director or Flash (using actionScript)... they
don't know the concepts that would allow them to
migrate effortlessly into Applescript or JScript.... they
are not armed with the knowledge that would allow
them to teach themselves Java or C++ based of the
concepts they should have learned with JavaScript.

obviously, that is a very general example and perhaps
not all "colleges" are so ingrained and intrenched in
"hands-on" with the current en vogue tools of the
trade that they aren't teaching the basic concepts, but
i think alot of employers are concerned that they may
not have the understanding of the oncepts that would
allow someone to be ableto keep up with new programs
and techniques.

ITT Tech offers a multimedia degree, so does Savannah
College of Art and Design (which is actually a University)...

2 equally abled graduates from each school up for the
same job and had roughly the same background, ethnicity,
et al... more than like the Savannah grad would get the job.

 

[mwc1978]

(actually, they may say "oh,i go to Harvard", but
that's neither here nor there )

Actually, people who go/went to Harvard often try to avoid mentioning it by name... instead, they'll say something like, "I went to college out east," or, "I went to college in the Boston area." Telling someone that you went to Harvard will usually result in one of two reactions:

1) The other person assumes that you're a pretentious know-it-all and wants nothing to do with you; or

2) The other person starts fawning over you... "Oh, you must be a genius blah blah blah...."

 

[hashish2020]

Actually, people who go/went to Harvard often try to avoid mentioning it by name... instead, they'll say something like, "I went to college out east," or, "I went to college in the Boston area." Telling someone that you went to Harvard will usually result in one of two reactions:

1) The other person assumes that you're a pretentious know-it-all and wants nothing to do with you; or

2) The other person starts fawning over you... "Oh, you must be a genius blah blah blah...."

It's alright tho, most people who go to Harvard are pretentious know it all's, esp the one's who brag (same for Yale, Oxford and so on)

 

[WRX STi]

I always thought the different was that universities grand phd's while college is only bs/ba/masters

 

[happybunny]

Why is it such a bad thing to have a well rounded education? Of course an employer would choose a person who knows more over a person who knows less. You study more at university, and it takes a hell of a lot longer. And there admission requirement is more than "being 18 and knowing how to turn on a light switch" as my history teacher would say. There is a big difference, people who go to university work harder, and they have worked harder in their life (because they were accepted) Why wouldn't an employer want to choose a harder working person?

I have been going to a community college for a week, I transferred there from a real university and I hate it at the community college. Next week I'll start at another real school.

There are big differences! My classmates didn't know what evolution was nor did they have the eloquence to express what they mean. "Didn't they say that we came from monkeys or some shit?" -Brilliant Anonymous college student, on the differences between religion and science.

Yeah what else is there to say. Am I a brat? I would hardly think so. I like to study and I like to be around people who like to study. So I'll just be blunt, the people at my university have been smarter. I have learned alot from them. Even just things like expanding my vocabulary from hearing them. Group work is also a big difference.

 

[physix]

^^ you'll get that at real uni's tho, too.

between programs that allow less-than-qualified students
in, legacy scenerios, and quotas (don't kid yourself, quotas
still exist), you'll always find people (even in higher 300+
level courses) who are like that... and i know some pretty
smart folk who go to community college who simply couldn't
afford to go to a Uni.... or maybe they just fucked around
in high school and simply needed to prove to a Uni that they
are indeed capable of managing university collegiate life.

 

[Cyc]

In my experience, my high school marks had little (or no) bearing to how well I'm doing in post-secondary studies.

This is true for many people.

The average High School graduate is 17/18 years old. At that age (I'm 24 now) I was a smart kid, who was fucking clueless and had no patience or motivation for study.

It took me a few years later to grow up and realize I was serious about learning.

In my opinion, the whole "admissions" system is complete bullshit. People change, they grow up and mature.

This is true for me, and I hate the fact that people get passed up for higher education simply because, as children, they weren't interested in study.

 

[PGTips]

It's alright tho, most people who go to Harvard are pretentious know it all's, esp the one's who brag (same for Yale, Oxford and so on)

Actually, most are usually perfectly capable of "blending in with the crowd" and not being noticed. Its just when you mix arrogance with something to perhaps be proud of (after all, whats bad about being in such places?) then you tend to find a small minority who are extremely vocal about how amazing they are, even when they might be singing their own praises a bit too much.

Yes, there's no denying such places have arrogant wankers you want to hit in the face with a large spade, or oddballs who can't talk to anyone and mutter to themselves, but the vast vast majority of people at such places are just normal, they just happen to be really good at a subject. Besides, going around saying "I'm the best thing since sliced bread" all the time inevitably means you meet someone better than you and who calls you on your "amazingness".

The vast majority of my friends just say "I'm in uni" or "I'm a student" when someone new asks them what they do, because its attitudes like yours which cause them to be ashamed of what should be something to be (quietly) proud of.

 

[hashish2020]

The vast majority of my friends just say "I'm in uni" or "I'm a student" when someone new asks them what they do, because its attitudes like yours which cause them to be ashamed of what should be something to be (quietly) proud of.

Attitudes like mine are based upon a lot of firsthand knowledge with many people who go there.

 

[PGTips]

Attitudes like mine are also based on first hand knowledge, I would wager with more people than you, unless you also attend such a place?

It happens that the arrogant ones who tout their praises stick out more. Once you ignore those jerks, you find most people are perfectly normal. Of course, if you never give them a chance because you are blinded to them by the loud jerks then you'll tar everyone with the same brush.

Its just a "erk" of mine that someone assumes because perhaps 5~20 people they've met from an institution were jerks all 15,000~40,000 (depending on where you are talking about) are exactly the same. I've met people from other unis who were prats, I do not automatically assume all from that university are the same, yet it seems people are happy to do that with places which ask for high entrance grades. Just seems a little unfair to me, especially when on the receiving end of such unfounded comments.

/edit
Apologies to the thread starter for the somewhat off topic discussion. If you want it removed, PM me or say here and I'll split the thread, because it was a good topic before the "snide comment" was made.

 

[hashish2020]

Attitudes like mine are also based on first hand knowledge, I would wager with more people than you, unless you also attend such a place?

It happens that the arrogant ones who tout their praises stick out more. Once you ignore those jerks, you find most people are perfectly normal. Of course, if you never give them a chance because you are blinded to them by the loud jerks then you'll tar everyone with the same brush.

Its just a "erk" of mine that someone assumes because perhaps 5~20 people they've met from an institution were jerks all 15,000~40,000 (depending on where you are talking about) are exactly the same. I've met people from other unis who were prats, I do not automatically assume all from that university are the same, yet it seems people are happy to do that with places which ask for high entrance grades. Just seems a little unfair to me, especially when on the receiving end of such unfounded comments.

/edit
Apologies to the thread starter for the somewhat off topic discussion. If you want it removed, PM me or say here and I'll split the thread, because it was a good topic before the "snide comment" was made.

I went to Harvard summer school--met around 30-50 current Harvard undergrads and like 15 grads, visited Columbia two falls ago, met about 20 people there, all undergrads, I know about 40 people from my school and about 25 outside of it that all attend Ivies, visited Oxford and stayed the night, meeting about 25 from that school. I also live in Jersey and know Princeton---the town, university, private schools, and public school.

Also, Ivies are far smaller than Oxbridge--so many are less than 15k

From what I can tell, the relative levels of my personal opinions of the blue-blooded arrogance goes about like this
1-Harvard
2-Yale
3-Dartmouth
4-Columbia
5-Oxford(everyone who comes from Eton at least)
6-Queen's in Canada (had to get that one in)

I know many people who go to these schools man--maybe a different crowd than you but a pretty representative crowd i think

 

[PGTips]

I know many people who go to these schools man--maybe a different crowd than you but a pretty representative crowd i think

I go to Cambridge, and I have met hundreds of students and see hundreds more (though do not talk to them, only see them from a distance) and most exactly the same as people I went to school with (I went to a state school in South Wales), people I know from my home town and general people I've met in my life. Some are jerks, most are normal.