• DPMC Moderators: thegreenhand | tryptakid
  • Drug Policy & Media Coverage Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Drug Busts Megathread Video Megathread

U.S. Prosecutors Sue To Stop Nation's First Supervised Injection Site For Opioids

having sites where addicts can use illegal hard drugs because they're being supervised is literally like adding a lane for drunk drivers to every highway/street in america.

actual bullshit ideology.
 
CallMePatrick said:
having sites where addicts can use illegal hard drugs because they're being supervised is literally like adding a lane for drunk drivers to every highway/street in america.

actual bullshit ideology.
Click to expand...

Your metaphor is bullshit. Drunk drivers are a danger to everyone by their action. Other drivers, pedestrians, themselves. Having a dedicated lane for them wouldn't remove that danger.

A better metaphor would be saying we should have supervised drinking centers where alcoholics can drink under medical supervision. Which if drinking were illegal and at risk of killing people outright would be a good idea.

Regardless, we don't need to argue in metaphors, or maybes, or hypotheticals.

Supervised injecting centers have already been tried. The evidence is in. So I would say either argue with the evidence or don't argue at all. We have enough policies and laws based on people's assumptions as it is.

Frankly I'm sick of people winding up hurt or dead so as to send the right message or preserve the status quo or feel better than other people or whatever motivates people to ignore sound evidence specifically so they can make life worse for others.
 
Not only have supervised injecting sites being proven, well beyond a reasonable doubt to reduce deaths and crime in a given area. Multiple small studies in various countries have shown that HAT treatment (heroin assisted treatment) is even more successful (along side shooting galleries/needle exchanges etc.) In HAT treatment you go to a clinic, similar to a shooting gallery and are given, for FREE or at most a negligible free, pharmaceutical grade heroin, which you may then use, hang out for a while, then go on with your day.

The biggest problem with methadone and Suboxone as a treatment is a lot of people aren't ready to make the jump from heroin. When given pharmacy grade heroin for free or near free, with naloxone and a RN on site to use it, you're able to grab (almost) all those people who aren't willing to switch or quit. Pharmacy grade heroin, used with clean needles with naloxone on hand is no more dangerous, even less dangerous than multiple opioid options used daily in hospitals in the US and all around the world. (Repeated needle punctures, even with clean needles are dangerous, don't get me wrong, just dramatically better than the alternative.)

Last time I looked, maybe 6-7 years ago, I found at least 6 studies, all in different countries, the total fatality rate with HAT treatment was ZERO (until the studies stopped and dozens of people would die in the area over the next year or two.) Of course the big concern is that more people would start using heroin, but every study showed the opposite, as have studies about decriminalization, legalization, etc. (Heroin is a lot less cool and fun when you go to a clinic to use it with a RN onsite.)

There's this myth that addicts have to hit "rock bottom" before they change. For some people that may be true. For many (maybe more?) the opposite is true. Stabilize a heroin addict with free pure heroin and what are they going to do? They tend to re-engage with family, with society, with non-drug using friends, they get jobs. Not having to constantly think about when they can next score, many of these people, in the studies I read at least, started choosing to taper their dosages (on their own) with a number quitting heroin completely. And for those who don't quit, at least they're alive, not spreading diseases, committing less crime, and are more engaged with society in a positive manner.

The studies were small and like I said I only found 6, but the logic is there, and while I wouldn't bet my life on it, I'd bet a huge sum of money that large scale studies of HAT treatment would find the same, less death (dramatically,) less crime (dramatically), less spread of illness, less drug use, and a better community. The fact that needle exchanges and shooting galleries are still controversial is a f'ing crime. I first read about HAT treatment around 2005, it's nothing new. Needle exchanges and shooting galleries are even more widely proven. But hey, war's are fun, and on rare occasions there's no one to bomb or shoot so at least we can keep the drug war going! Since we must always fight the enemy! (doesn't matter who/what the enemy is, we just need to fight it!) /rant
 
Gregorio888 said:
Not only have supervised injecting sites being proven, well beyond a reasonable doubt to reduce deaths and crime in a given area. Multiple small studies in various countries have shown that HAT treatment (heroin assisted treatment) is even more successful (along side shooting galleries/needle exchanges etc.) In HAT treatment you go to a clinic, similar to a shooting gallery and are given, for FREE or at most a negligible free, pharmaceutical grade heroin, which you may then use, hang out for a while, then go on with your day.

The biggest problem with methadone and Suboxone as a treatment is a lot of people aren't ready to make the jump from heroin. When given pharmacy grade heroin for free or near free, with naloxone and a RN on site to use it, you're able to grab (almost) all those people who aren't willing to switch or quit. Pharmacy grade heroin, used with clean needles with naloxone on hand is no more dangerous, even less dangerous than multiple opioid options used daily in hospitals in the US and all around the world. (Repeated needle punctures, even with clean needles are dangerous, don't get me wrong, just dramatically better than the alternative.)

Last time I looked, maybe 6-7 years ago, I found at least 6 studies, all in different countries, the total fatality rate with HAT treatment was ZERO (until the studies stopped and dozens of people would die in the area over the next year or two.) Of course the big concern is that more people would start using heroin, but every study showed the opposite, as have studies about decriminalization, legalization, etc. (Heroin is a lot less cool and fun when you go to a clinic to use it with a RN onsite.)

There's this myth that addicts have to hit "rock bottom" before they change. For some people that may be true. For many (maybe more?) the opposite is true. Stabilize a heroin addict with free pure heroin and what are they going to do? They tend to re-engage with family, with society, with non-drug using friends, they get jobs. Not having to constantly think about when they can next score, many of these people, in the studies I read at least, started choosing to taper their dosages (on their own) with a number quitting heroin completely. And for those who don't quit, at least they're alive, not spreading diseases, committing less crime, and are more engaged with society in a positive manner.

The studies were small and like I said I only found 6, but the logic is there, and while I wouldn't bet my life on it, I'd bet a huge sum of money that large scale studies of HAT treatment would find the same, less death (dramatically,) less crime (dramatically), less spread of illness, less drug use, and a better community. The fact that needle exchanges and shooting galleries are still controversial is a f'ing crime. I first read about HAT treatment around 2005, it's nothing new. Needle exchanges and shooting galleries are even more widely proven. But hey, war's are fun, and on rare occasions there's no one to bomb or shoot so at least we can keep the drug war going! Since we must always fight the enemy! (doesn't matter who/what the enemy is, we just need to fight it!) /rant
Click to expand...
+1
 
They should just give RX opiates to addicts already. The injection sites are great but it doesn't do anything for the supply side.

The Fed in the U.S. has to fight this on ideological grounds because it's "condoning drug use" and we know how the DEA is about that.

They just need to abolish that shitty department already. It was founded by Nixon for god's sake, when they knew nothing about the science of street drugs or the condition of addiction.
 
Thank you SJB and cj for the support.

Foreigner, I believe we agree 99.99%. I have one very slight disagreement with you. It's true they didn't have nearly as much science as we do today about the effects of drug use and addiction back then. That said, they knew exactly what they were doing when creating the DEA and the drug laws of today. They created it to keep down African Americans and those critical of the Vietnam War (Liberals essentially.) John Ehrlichman was the domestic policy chief for Nixon when the war on drugs was started, and went to federal prison after the Watergate scandal. In 1994 he was quoted as saying the following to a reporter. (He was disgraced and opening up at this point about what they had done.)


"You want to know what this was really all about? The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."


So yeah, right there John Ehrlichman basically admitted what we already know (we being those who have studied drug use, its dangers, the policy effects, etc.) Imo it really comes down to education. Kids/teenagers should have drug use be part of our standard educational system, using science, not propaganda teaching them about drugs and their effects. I've no idea how to change the minds of so many people, but we do seem to be moving slightly in the right direction, just waaaay too slowly.

If I were dictator I think I'd just have drugs regulated and available for purchase to those who've studied and received licenses to buy a given drug, after they are 18 or 21 or something. Kind of like a driver's license but perhaps more rigorous. And for those who get caught using drugs without a license or are too young, have them do some community service or something minor, and more importantly educate them about the drugs they are using. Let the DEA exist to arrest people who do things like spike heroin with fentanyl or sell "LSD" that's actually 25i etc, or move them to start enforcing economic crimes (white collar crimes,) or something that will actually help people, and not lock up people in cages for trying a drug out of curiosity, wanting to party, or having a mental illness that isn't being treated.

It's a pipe dream I know, stupid humanity (myself included) is guided by emotion and not logic waaaaaayy too often. I've no idea how to fix that : /
 
I find it so enraging whenever individuals like John Ehrlichman - typically, elected officials and/or bureaucrats, who were in positions of authority at one time - cleverly play a fundamental role in inflicting an untold amount of needless pain and suffering upon a vulnerable portion of fellow citizens; and then, they choose to passively acknowledge the real reasons for doing it long after much of the damage has been done. Yes, I really appreciate the confession, however, it in turn reminds me of the consequences, which, are usually horrific. Fucking parasites.
 
On joe rogan podcast (i believe episode #1251?) They talked about switzerlands injection site and how they also provided job placement and housing and majority of people stopped using drugs. The site was providing free drugs.
Then they talked about a study on rats. One group they kept them in small cages. The other was huge cage best food and rat friends to play with have sex with basically a rat paradise. When offered drugs the lonely caged rat went after it. The rats in rat paradise did not.
So with such a negative stigma attached to drug use and a society constantly shaming you and telling you "youre bad bad bad! Youre shit!" and doing nothing but locking us up and throwing drug charges on us to where if we ever were to clean our lives up our record is fucked and no one wants to hire us, why quit.
Now after switzerland started doin the supervised injection site crime rates went down and prostitution decreased. Keep in mind they were providing free medical grade clean drugs but werr also helping with employment and housing. I think i recall them sayin theyd go to potential employer and say look if you hire this person we will pay 50% of their wages. So instead of money goin towards cost of keeping someone incarcerated,such as in the U.S., it went towards this program which is a completely diff route of rehabilitation but the numbers show more people got clean and stayed clean voluntarily.
Alongside the rat study they did shows if we stop shaming and theyre in a conducive,positive uplifting environment the vast majority will want to do better and thrive.
Pretty sure it was the swiss, anyhow great listen as are all of rogans podcasts.
I doubt free drugs will be provided at supervised sites in USA or the otherthings that swiss provided so it wont be the same kind of success but hopefully will be a small stepping stone for us to come around to what they had great success with

-----

Canada did an experiment many years ago where they provided proper tattoo equipment to stop some of the hep c transmission from jail tatts then inmates bein released and further spreading it outside system to the general population. Anyone know if this has remained in place?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It's sad that my wife, a former crackhead and lifelong alcoholicc is sober now and thinks this encourages drug use. Most people think drug users should be shit on to get then to knock off their bullshit
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top