Turkey down Russian warplane over claimed airspace violation

[Sprout]

Article here

There is obvious dispute over whether the downed plane was violating Turkish airspace or technically within the boundaries of Syria.
The Turkish claim is that the plane was a mile into their border and ignoring repeated warnings to alter its course in the 5 minutes preceding the 17 second violation.
The Russian claim is that the plane was actually a kilometer (0.62 miles) into the Syrian border when it was shot down.

Two pilots were seen to eject and were shot dead in the air by rebel Syrian fighters in the Lataka Province of Syria.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6ae_1448377068

 

[One Thousand Words]

Shooting down plane after repeated warnings... the Russians would no doubt have done the same thing if provoked.

Shooting pilots as they eject..... pretty fucking shitty and I'm sure considered an official War crime. That's only if rules really exist for war.

 

[MUSHET]

Shooting down plane after repeated warnings... the Russians would no doubt have done the same thing if provoked.
.

That's one side of the story...

The world is actually going crazy - ISIS killing people in Paris, Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (fuck knows what will come of that), Israel/Palestine conflict, millions fleeing to Europe, passenger planes getting blown out of the sky - man, it's a lot to take in...

 

[Sprout]

That's one side of the story...

The world is actually going crazy - ISIS killing people in Paris, Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (fuck knows what will come of that), Israel/Palestine conflict, millions fleeing to Europe, passenger planes getting blown out of the sky - man, it's a lot to take in...

Almost enough to turn you to drugs, isn't it?!

 

[MUSHET]

Almost enough to turn you to drugs, isn't it?!

Word. Or build some kind of special underground bunker (kind of like Fritz but more friendly) and fill it with years and years worth of supplies.

 

[Raasyvibe]

Two pilots were seen to eject and were shot dead in the air by rebel Syrian fighters in the Lataka Province of Syria.

Only one was shot, the other survived

Shooting pilots as they eject..... pretty fucking shitty and I'm sure considered an official War crime.

Well what do they expect. They're bombing the shit out of the rebel fighters, you think they're going to come down to a warm welcome?

 

[Sprout]

I don't think it wise to claim with any certainty the exact targets of any faction involved, there seems to be an awful lot of accusations surrounding whether Russia is actually bombing enemies of the regime that is barrel-bombing civilians.

 

[Raasyvibe]

It's pretty well established Russia are behind Asaad. And do you have to end every post with a heart?

 

[Sprout]

Yes, I'm glad it's been noted.

I have been doing so for years, debated adding it to the Signature area but felt it a little more personal if I mark every post with a little bit o' love. I must confess to also withdrawing use of the heart if I'm getting as serious as it's possible for me to be.

For all the hate online communication receives, there are some facets that are unique compared to the written word.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

 

[BecomingJulie]

Two pilots were seen to eject and were shot dead in the air by rebel Syrian fighters in the Lataka Province of Syria.

Only one was shot, the other survived

What, does that make it OK, then?

Shooting someone abandoning a stricken vehicle is a war crime. If they survive, the most you are allowed to do is take them prisoner.

 

[Bearlove]

Only one was shot, the other survived

Well what do they expect. They're bombing the shit out of the rebel fighters, you think they're going to come down to a warm welcome?

What, does that make it OK, then?

Shooting someone abandoning a stricken vehicle is a war crime. If they survive, the most you are allowed to do is take them prisoner.

Moral of the story, let them land then shoot them when nobody is watching.

When something is busy dropping bombs on you - what is your target for retaliation? In this instance do you simply blame the jet or the person flying it - I think its understandable that the pilots were shot at.

 

[Sprout]

Turkish Military aircraft were responsible for hitting the plane, but ethnic Turkmen rebels shot on the falling pilots.
This was a binary act until the third party joined in simply to massacre a man risking his life for his country. His job is to operate the plane, once that plane has been destroyed and he's then 16,000ft in the air over hostile territory, he is no longer a Russian Military pilot but a defenseless floating fleshbag ripped apart by speeding metal because his country of birth happened to have geopolitical interests...

 

[BecomingJulie]

Moral of the story, let them land then shoot them when nobody is watching.

If you're going to let them land, why waste that by shooting them? Prisoners of War are a very useful bargaining chip.

 

[Bearlove]

His job is to kill people using the weapon he was given - a jet. When his targets are 16000ft below him, he understands that these targets will be shooting back using the weapons they were given, following the orders they were given.

Is the jet the enemy or the pilot?

 

[Bearlove]

If you're going to let them land, why waste that by shooting them? Prisoners of War are a very useful bargaining chip.

Turkey and Russia are not at war (Were waiting for the Kurds to be set onto ISIS under the guise of 'defending' the Turkish borders before that happens). At the moment, Turkish Rebels are being blamed for the shooting.

 

[Sprout]

His job is to kill people using the weapon he was given - a jet. When his targets are 16000ft below him, he understands that these targets will be shooting back using the weapons they were given, following the orders they were given.

Is the jet the enemy or the pilot?

That may be true. But in my view the tragic loss of life should hurt anyone who can imagine the sheer horror of 'war' being the last thing another human being experiences, in a conflict they don't understand and maybe even conscripted to die for the whim of the powerful.

I firmly believe in separating the meat puppet and the hardware. Conventional weapons obliterate the bodies of the operator, a sentient being sacrificed like a pawn.
The enemy should be the weapon, but the true enemy is sheer primal brutality.

 

[Bearlove]

That may be true. But in my view the tragic loss of life should hurt anyone who can imagine the sheer horror of 'war' being the last thing another human being experiences, in a conflict they don't understand and maybe even conscripted to die for the whim of the powerful.

I firmly believe in separating the meat puppet and the hardware. Conventional weapons obliterate the bodies of the operator, a sentient being sacrificed like a pawn.
The enemy should be the weapon, but the true enemy is sheer primal brutality.

I agree with you, not everyone knows why they are fighting - who is the actual enemy or what the ramifications of their actions might lead to. In instances like this though, can you really separate the 'meat puppet' from the hardware? They are both as deadly, the hardware is just that, a machine until the pilot takes control of it when it becomes a weapon.

I understand the meaning of don't shoot the messenger, what happens when the messenger is shooting you?

 

[Sprout]

The simple presence of the third party is enough to vastly alter the scenario.
The jet was not currently engaged in combat with any target, this could even have been a fly-by to test Turkey's threat to the Russian operation.

Even if the hardware was intended to hit the rebel groups, the operator has had the tool of war removed from his control.
He has been hit by an unexpected flurry of Hellfire from a target he was never going to engage. We don't even know if there were problems with the navigation system, the pilot could have been misled by a tiny glitch in a vital piece of software into believing he was firmly outside Turkish airspace.

Aerial warfare is completely different to having to defend against the pure physicality of a trained combatant.
A pilot descending to Earth after having been rendered as completely vulnerable while presenting no immediate threat is as abhorrent to murder as a civilian.
The operator is only the threat if the tool is their anatomy.

A life has been lost simply because militants without official orders have decided their right to end life in the most cowardly of ways is more important than the right of another to not be shredded.