Trying to quit suboxone!!! Cant seem to do it?

[Backwoodzjunkie]

Hi, im quite new to the BL community on here but i guess il start with a little background. I started doing opiates at around 19 when i had bowel problems and got them thru a doctor that threw them out like Willy Wonka. I started on the trusty old hydrocodone 5mg and continued on that for about 5-6 months before going up to hydro 10's. After another 3-4 months of that i started on oxycodone and creeped up to 30mg 6 times a day. Boy o boy was that fun to withdrawal of of after a year! I was puking blood up by the 3rd day of dope sickness.... But to my suprise i stayed clean for about 6 months before i started to hear through the grapevine that this wonderful new drug was goin around called "suboxone"! From all my junkie buddies i heard that it was a godsend and no longer did you have to expierience the sickness to get clean.... I wish i would of never listen and pick up the phone to call that clinic. I wan in in the next 3 days and out i walk with a prescription for 32 8mg films. I have never tried suboxone before so i had no idea what to expect. As i sat sweating in the chair waiting for my induction dose i was quite paranoid. They then placed that tiny Listerine strip under my tounge, within the next 45mins i felt like a million bucks! It felt like being on low dose oxy that lasted for 24hrs. I was instantly hooked and hopeless. For the next 5-6yrs i have struggled with Suboxone as my vice, i will pass up percocet and heroin to get a Sub. Because in my mind why even bother with the other shit when Subs will hold me over for at least a good 12 to 24hrs. But here i am... 7 years later starting the cycle all over again screwing up. About a year ago i had been clean from EVERYTHING including subs, even had a shitty job making pizzas. It all started when a friend gave me a bag of 20 roxis to sell for her...lol thats all it took to put me into junkie overdrive. I though damn iv been clean 6 months, I bet 2 10mg will get me a decent buzz to chill and listen to some Marcys Playground.... I still can hear the song "Opium" as i started to push off. That bag of 20 oxys was gone by that morning. So i started using my paychecks to buy more every weekend bc i figured i could save it as a weekend treat.... Lol i know right?!? After about a couple months of that i couldnt afford the shit anymore so i lost my job and started stealing to support my habit... Im actually a very talented locksmith so money was easy. But after to many close calls and nearly being shoot/ arrested i decided to save my talent for only good. So after the thefts and many stolen goods i set up as a small time dealer to support my habit, money was pretty good but as any dealer will tell u its nerve racking and stressful as fuk! I got robbed a few times and screwed over several.... I nearly almost beat someone to death bc of an argument and unpayed debt. I am extremely lucky that they didnt call the xops and disappeared from town. My wife was begging me to stop so i did... I just couldnt do it anymore and i was growing tired of that lifestyle. So i started buying Subs after the last big heroin binge to come off... I only told myself i would use them for a week then quit. But here i am completely dependant on the damn orange fuks! Im only at about 2mgs a day and have been for 6 months but its hell to come off them. I have tried 9 times in the past 2 months to come of them but i keep buying another pill after i get to the 72hr clean mark. I have and appointment at an addiction place but is not till later this month. Im so tired of the withdrawals but i honestly feel like suboxone helps to keep me off the hard stuff... But yet its a double edged sword if i cant get them. Its driving me insane. And my question is.. If i keep coming back to subs should i stay on them for good or just tough it out and try complete sobriety again. Btw im at the 60hr mark of withdrawal and feel like shit. .. I may be able to get another 2mg by tonight or by latest friday night so max il be at the peak of WD by the time i can re-dose. Any tips for the time being? I have about 48 lope pills so if need be i can take those.. But thats all i have. No clonidine or nothing

 

[Backwoodzjunkie]

Just an update.... Just did 2mgs of sub about 5mins ago and starting to feel the drip. Guess im fuck... Im never gonna get off this shit

 

[artmo66]

At 60 hour mark your WD is just starting to peak , 2mg is still a hefty dose if you've been on it for extended time and will take a while for you to detox completely , than another while for your brain to adjust . Did you ever try tapering ? Try 1.75 mg next time and if it holds you over . In my personal experience it takes about 4-5 days to adjust to a lower dose . After your more or less stable just repeat the process . It still sucks but at least for me is a lot more tolerable than CT . Good luck brother

 

[simco]

OP, I don't know enough about your situation to give strong advice. But based on what you've described, I think there's a lot to be said for your staying on subs. As long as you have a legit doctor scripting it to you, there's very little down side and lots of up sides (as you said, it helps you avoid the very destabilizing influence of full-agonist opioids like H).

I couldn't quite tell from your post--do you have a doctor who prescribes your subs? If so, is that situation stable/working?

 

[artmo66]

OP, I don't know enough about your situation to give strong advice. But based on what you've described, I think there's a lot to be said for your staying on subs. As long as you have a legit doctor scripting it to you, there's very little down side and lots of up sides (as you said, it helps you avoid the very destabilizing influence of full-agonist opioids like H).

I couldn't quite tell from your post--do you have a doctor who prescribes your subs? If so, is that situation stable/working?

Totally agree

 

[LopLover]

Hi backwoodz, welcome! Since I just went through the same thing, decided to throw in my two cents. First, if you aren't getting them legally, you might consider doing that if you're going to stay on them. That would make your decision something you can kick down the road as long as you need to. Eventually street connections always run out or get busted or something. As another poster mentioned, you ought to try a long-term taper--2 mg is still a pretty high dose. When I was trying to get off Sub, I got down to 1/4 mg every other day and still was maintained. In fact, that's the dose I'm on right now that my doctor agreed to keep me on because I simply couldn't get over the withdrawals any lower. I tried several times, but they never got better. And I went for at least a month completely off Sub and the withdrawals never got better. However, the time I took to taper from 2 mg, which I got to with no problems from 8 and even higher at the beginning, to my current dose, was about 3 years. It's not a quick thing, not if you want to avoid severe withdrawals.

So, as far as advice for you, I'd say to first try tapering your dose down before you make a decision. You should be able to drop your 2 mg in half without too much trouble, then cut it down no more than 25% at a time, with the drops no less than a week apart. You may be able to get off it without withdrawals. However, if the issue is whether you should stay on as a way of guaranteeing you don't use other opiates, that's another question. You still want to get down to the lowest effective dose of Suboxone, for financial and health reasons. It stays effective at preventing other opiates from working at quite low doses. Again, though, it would be best if you worked with a doctor or clinic, rather than buying them on the street and doing it yourself. But of course, that's your decision.

If you're adamant about taking something to keep opiates from working for you and can get off the sub OK, there's another alternative, Vivitrol. It's naltrexone formulated as a once-monthly IM shot. Mostly it's being used in parole and probation offices and drug courts to keep parolees from using opiates, as most people won't use it unless they are coerced. But it's always a possibility if you're really motivated. It's very expensive and I wouldn't take something that changed my body for a month at a time, but it's also prescribed in a pill called Revia that's much cheaper and if it causes side effects you can just stop taking it. I just mention it as a possibility. I took it once for a while after I got out of a mental hospital, but it didn't really stop the cravings like Suboxone does, and when I wanted to use again, I just quit taking it and by the next day I could get high.

Whatever decision you make, let us know how you're doing!

 

[Jabberwocky]

If buprenorphine isn't doing it for the OP's cravings, I doubt naltrexone will help with that.

Frankly the OP sounds like they need more structure. Either finding a buprenorphine IOP program that is rigorous enough for their needs or biting the bullet and looking into methadone. Methadone offers way more structure than most buprenorphine program, and works a lot more effectively for cravings.

Too bad there is so much stigma surrounding it...

 

[LopLover]

Methadone offers way more structure than most buprenorphine program, and works a lot more effectively for cravings.

Too bad there is so much stigma surrounding it...

Absolutely. I had hoped that, with the hysteria about the "opioid epidemic," which by this point is more a scam that a lot of people are profiting from than anything else, that there would be an effort to make medication-assisted treatment, and especially methadone, more acceptable to the public. On the other hand, since so many methadone clinics are now offering Suboxone, it is probably easier to get MAT than ever before. Even my little town now has a clinic that offers Suboxone, and it's always possible they might eventually offer methadone. In general, I think that the clients they're getting, mostly young people who haven't been strung out very long and most of whom are addicted to Oxys and other pills, rather than heroin, probably are more suitable for Suboxone. Personally, and I've been on both, methadone should be a last resort for those that have been using for at least a decade, and people that go on it should be allowed to stay on it as long as they need to, including indefinitely. I think that Suboxone clients should be able to stay on it for life, if necessary, as well. My own personal experience trying to get off Sub recently let me know that, despite living as a recovering person for the better part of 25 years, once I don't have that making me feel normal, I turned back into a dope fiend really fast, and if heroin was readily accessible for me, I would be back on it. I'm fortunate that my doctor agreed to keep seeing me. Probably also fortunate that I live in a place where it's kind of hard to find, and that I've made a point of staying far away from that world and the people who still live there.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I agree with what you're saying, although I found that the restrictions in place in terms of who can get on methadone maintenance (as opposed to a detox or extended detox) are pretty robust already. I'm not sure there should be a limit on who can get on it when it's obvious the person needs something like that (as in previous treatment attempts or extenuating circumstances, like HIV/HCV or legal issues).

I believe clinics need to document people have been struggling to stop using for a certain number of years, less than ten, but that doesn't mean someone who has been struggling for three years trying to get help hasn't also been struggling with their use in other ways for far longer. It's nice to think it's been such a while since I was on methadone I'm starting to forget clinic policies

I've heard horror stories about people getting on methadone who only took a few Vicodin a day, but 9/10 people I met through clinics had serious long standing issues. I might have run into one or two people who probably would have been better off with buprenorphine, the average person definitely qualified for their methadone treatment.

 

[LopLover]

I agree with what you're saying, although I found that the restrictions in place in terms of who can get on methadone maintenance (as opposed to a detox or extended detox) are pretty robust already. I'm not sure there should be a limit on who can get on it when it's obvious the person needs something like that (as in previous treatment attempts or extenuating circumstances, like HIV/HCV or legal issues).

I believe clinics need to document people have been struggling to stop using for a certain number of years, less than ten, but that doesn't mean someone who has been struggling for three years trying to get help hasn't also been struggling with their use in other ways for far longer. It's nice to think it's been such a while since I was on methadone I'm starting to forget clinic policies

I've heard horror stories about people getting on methadone who only took a few Vicodin a day, but 9/10 people I met through clinics had serious long standing issues. I might have run into one or two people who probably would have been better off with buprenorphine, the average person definitely qualified for their methadone treatment.

It was the stories about the kids with lightweight Vicodin habits that I was thinking about when I said what I did. I tend to think about methadone, especially high-dose like some clinics are giving out, as being so hard to get off that anyone getting on it for maintenance is looking at something that's going to affect their lives in a big way for quite a while. But then again, Suboxone seems to be a bitch to get off as well, so it probably doesn't make much difference when you're only looking at the difficulty of tapering off it. All in all, I think I'd rather be on methadone, but that may just be the junkie in me talking, because Sub makes me feel normal at best, and I know I could get a buzz off methadone, at least a couple of times before I habituated to it. I'm trying, now that I'm back on it, to get my head back into a recovery space, rather than the dope fiend thinking that it got into when I was sick every day trying to get off it. I just don't handle that very well.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Depends what you mean by normal.

Back before I started using opioids, my normal was depression, anxiety and lots of social phobia. When I was on opioids, that was less of a challenge and I was a lot more functional. But only when I was on them, lol. And of course opioids work so well for anxiety and depression (when on them, with a few caveats in terms of depression) that I had little motivation to continue exploring other strategies and practices for overcoming those challenges.

Buprenorphine was better than nothing in terms of getting a stable baseline in terms of my mood and mental health, but it wasn’t nearly as effective as any full agonist Id tried. After a while, as I became really tolerant to buprenorphine, it lost a lot of its effectiveness in terms of the mood regulation. Made it hard to use other opioids and the tolerance it gave me made OD a lot less likely, but it stopped working in terms of cravings and mood pretty fast for me. A lot of that had to do with the way it’s prescribed, as I did way better on it while I was in IOP - it was post IOP that it stopped working well.

Methadone stabilized my mood in a way buprenorphine might not have been able to precisely because it’s a full agonist. Also having the clinic structure and support helped keep that stable long term. I loved how my mood stabilized further as I taper off methadone - I felt way better on 15mg than I did 90mg.

I am just trying to say, if normal mean excruciating physical or psychological/emotional/spiritual pain, and if buprenorphine or methadone help provide a more manageable baseline to work with that pain (it’s not like the ORT totally overcomes the pain, not by a long shot, although it certainly does make it more manageable to live/work with), and that allows people to learn the tools and practices that allow them to overcome their suffering, sounds like a useful tool to me.

Depending on how much pain is involved in normal for someone, buprenorphine or methadone might be more appropriate, but it has evering to do with the individual’s particularly experience of discomfort (the unique causes and conditions that have lead them to that point of suffering in life) and nothing to do with anything intrinsic to methadone vs buprenorphine. For the same reason, this is why heroin assisted treatment works so well for some people - far better than either methadone or buprenorphine.

Undoubtably “normal” will mean totally different things between someone who become addicted to opioids and someone without that experience of addiction. And among people who experience addiction, it’s not like the experience is uniform between all people who struggle with it, so what works for different people will work precisely because it meets their different needs appropriately. Iono if this is making sense... kinda lost that train of though at the end there 8)

 

[Backwoodzjunkie]

Thanks for all the replys!!! It really helps me feel better since i dont have friends or parents to talk to. I made it a tad bit over 60hrs but my buddy had (2) 8mg subs so i ended up buying them?. I really think yall are right about staying on subs... It helps all around for me. I think i just let the stigma of maintenance drugs really gets to me. I have an appointment at a mental/drug health clinic in 2 days so im hoping they can help may be able to help me with a suboxone script. The only reason why i felt guilty and quit the suboxone last time was because the clinic cost almost $400 a month! But now the clinic im goin to in a few days is free! Il let yall know how it goes after i go to my intake appointment. Thanks again everyone for all the support, yall have no idea how much it helps
-rob zombi