Tapering Trying to get off heroin with Hydrocodone…?

[cabbagepatch31]

So I’m usually an IV user of both powder & BTH, whatever I can get my hands on. But lately, I’d say for about the past 4+ months, I’ve been IMing because it takes me so long to find a useable vein nowadays. I exclusively used BTH in the beginning because it was all I could find, and that stuff absolutely destroyed my veins. I know IMing heroin is terrible. That’s just another reason why I’m wanting to quit. I’ve purchased 30 methadone 10s, 20 oxy 30s, and 50 hydro 10s. I really got the methadone just incase I really need it, I’ve detoxed from methadone and it was terrible. My tolerance is a lot lower than it used to be when I was IVing powder. My idea is to take the Oxys in the begging, and maybe a methadone if I need it. Then start breaking the oxy in half, until I eventually graduate to the hydros. How does that sound? I started exactly a week ago today, so no heroin since then. I’ve never successfully detoxed on my own, only in rehab. I’ve tried doing the suboxone thing SO many times, but I really can’t stand being sick, and suboxone never seems to work for the first two days. Also, for anyone who detoxed from heroin with hydros, was a a lot easier than heroin? Should I taper a different way than i have stated?over how long of a period should i taper?I have access to more oxy and hydros if I need them. I’m really want to quit, but I can’t stop thinking about getting High..it’s been suck a struggle. Also, if I fail another drug test, I will possibly have to go to jail. I’m feeling a lot of shame at the moment for putting myself in this situation in the first place. I know doing heroin isn’t doing me ANY favors whatsoever. I wouldn’t say I have completely hit rock bottom yet..I maintain a full time job and live with my boyfriend is our home. But I don’t want to hit rock bottom, and I know if I keep going I will lose everything important to me. Any advice or words of encouragement would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

Hey. Congrats on realizing that quitting heroin will keep you free, in more ways than one. Having jail hanging over your head is a great motivator. It's good that you have the m'done, oxys and vics but aren't you going to have to explain those too? So its been 7 days and no heroin ( fent ) at all right?
So that might be out of your system but what about the pills and the m'done. Especially the m'done since it will linger longer than the oxy and vic.

I mean we can't talk about drug testing here because it is against the BL rules, but what I can say is I hope you can dump the heroin for good and I hope all the residual metabolites are out for anything else you are taking. Not sure how accurate probation tests are but if they are sent out for an immunoessay those opioids are going to show up unless you are careful. Dump the comfort meds as quick as you can and get yourself some kratom ( if you can ). I am pretty sure nobody is testing for it yet, but even if they are, I would rather get popped for kratom than oxy's or m'done. kratom could be easier to explain...you just thought it was Chinese herbal tea. Good luck.

 

[cabbagepatch31]

Thank you very much for your kind words of encouragement. As far as probation goes, I haven’t reported in person since the pandemic started, but I know they can ask me back any time. That’s why I’ve been able to get away with using the whole time. But I expect to taper and be off the meds in the next two weeks, hopefully. Yeah, I was thinking about Kratom..does it really work? I’ve tried it before, (while I was strung out, though) and didn’t feel a thing. I’ve heard you have to take a shit ton, even with no tolerance, to even get anything from it. Idk, I’ll try anything at this point.

Hey. Congrats on realizing that quitting heroin will keep you free, in more ways than one. Having jail hanging over your head is a great motivator. It's good that you have the m'done, oxys and vics but aren't you going to have to explain those too? So its been 7 days and no heroin ( fent ) at all right?
So that might be out of your system but what about the pills and the m'done. Especially the m'done since it will linger longer than the oxy and vic.

I mean we can't talk about drug testing here because it is against the BL rules, but what I can say is I hope you can dump the heroin for good and I hope all the residual metabolites are out for anything else you are taking. Not sure how accurate probation tests are but if they are sent out for an immunoessay those opioids are going to show up unless you are careful. Dump the comfort meds as quick as you can and get yourself some kratom ( if you can ). I am pretty sure nobody is testing for it yet, but even if they are, I would rather get popped for kratom than oxy's or m'done. kratom could be easier to explain...you just thought it was Chinese herbal tea. Good luck.

 

[Jabberwocky]

be careful using other opioids to taper- they can be great for mitigating the worst of withdrawal but i'd often end up dragging out that last few days where you are really listless and brain foggy and sweaty. but like you i never really could detox myself, i only managed when i physically couldn't get heroin. otherwise i'd get to day 3 of withdrawals (max) then bale.

what psychological help are you getting? what do you think went wrong for you in rehab? did they actually make any attempts to get to the bottom of what was causing you to use while you were in there, and address those issues? if you just detox without putting in the work to treat the mental side of your addiction you will have a much harder time getting clean. self care, mutual support groups, therapy, etc all really helped me get into long term recovery.

 

[cabbagepatch31]

be careful using other opioids to taper- they can be great for mitigating the worst of withdrawal but i'd often end up dragging out that last few days where you are really listless and brain foggy and sweaty. but like you i never really could detox myself, i only managed when i physically couldn't get heroin. otherwise i'd get to day 3 of withdrawals (max) then bale.

what psychological help are you getting? what do you think went wrong for you in rehab? did they actually make any attempts to get to the bottom of what was causing you to use while you were in there, and address those issues? if you just detox without putting in the work to treat the mental side of your addiction you will have a much harder time getting clean. self care, mutual support groups, therapy, etc all really helped me get into long term recovery.

Well I just hit 10 days no heroin today. I did have to go out and get more pills but that’s okay. This is the longest I’ve made it myself without breaking down and scoring. Don’t get me wrong, it’s the first thing I think about when I wake up, and the last thing I think about when I go to sleep. I was VERY close to getting stuff a couple days ago, but didn’t in the end. I think the pills are really helping me. Like I said, I’ve tried it numerous times in the past with MAT drugs, and it never worked for me the way this method seems to be working (this is my first time trying to taper/detox with pills). I actually have been waking up and feeling pretty good. Usually, I would be waking up needing a shot to get well. I am going to hit some meeting as soon as I’m off the pills. It doesn’t feel right walking into a meeting on drugs. I just think rehab didn’t work for me because I was never really ready to get clean. I’m having way more success right now then I ever have had after rehab. I’ve been to treatment 6 times and never even made it 48 hours after I got home. When did it get easier for you? Like, when did you stop thinking about it constantly? I feel good today, but I’m scared I’m going to have another day like I had on Friday again, and this time I won’t be strong enough. I want this so bad I really do. I think you’re right about seeing a therapist…it would be good to talk to someone about this. No one in my family understands heroin addiction, and none of my friends use, so I’m kinda alone.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It doesn’t feel right walking into a meeting on drugs.

mate don't worry about it!!! honestly for my first 6 months in NA i was either nodding out in meetings, popping out for a pipe (i was addicted to crack as well) or just falling asleep cos i hadn't slept in days and run out of crack. no one was ever anything but nice to me.

I just think rehab didn’t work for me because I was never really ready to get clean. I’m having way more success right now then I ever have had after rehab. I’ve been to treatment 6 times and never even made it 48 hours after I got home.

fuckng hell man. well done. i do think readiness can play a part but i don't really know as i only went to rehab once and had no idea if i was ready. my parents changed the locks to my house (they'd been paying my mortgage and bills after i lost my job) so i had to either go to rehab or be homeless with nothing. after rehab i had to go live with them, a 5 hour train journey from where i was living when i was using. if i'd have had to go back to my place i don't reckon i'd have fared better than you.

i put in the work after rehab though. tbh my life got so much better even while i was still in there, not having to whore myself out and actually having hope for the first time in a long time was enough to make me want to give recovery the best shot i could.

When did it get easier for you? Like, when did you stop thinking about it constantly? I feel good today, but I’m scared I’m going to have another day like I had on Friday again, and this time I won’t be strong enough. I want this so bad I really do.

it got easier and harder in waves for me. the thing i found hardest was all the stuff i hadn't processed emotionally while using was waiting for me. and my brain didn't start processing them while i was in rehab, oh no that would be too easy, it waited til i got out. i honestly thought all the shit was never going to end, it was relentless. i was sure i was gonna use so many times and honestly i have no idea how i didn't. i truly learned the meaning of the term white knuckling it.

i was in rehab for 2 months and was definitely still completely obsessed when i got out. tbh i'm still obsessed with it in a way, but i just don't want to use it the vast majority of the time. i think by about month 4 cravings were getting fewer and further between. months 5 and 6 i thought i was fucking free. then something triggered my ptsd in a big way and i felt back at square 1. i spent a month suffering then got medicated and referred for more therapy for my ptsd.

then i was basically free for a while, and got what i thought was an ace new job. turned out the boss was an abusive cunt. from jan 2020 i spent 3 months wanting to score on the way to and from work- there were some spots on my route. i felt sure every day i'd do it. i finally broke after 18 months clean. didn't do what i wanted but i did again the next day and the next. then lockdown hit and i went back to my parents. got away from there just in the nick of time. had another lapse of about a week last september for reasons i still don't fully understand, more self destructive than anything. since then i think i've accepted me and heroin are done. i still think about it but it didn't once do what i had wanted it to so i doubt it ever will again.

probably not the answer you were hoping for. but if i was like 'oh i was fine in 2 weeks' you'd know i was full of shit. you want this. you've done really well so far. you will get cravings. keep busy so you have less mental space to act on cravings if you get them.

 

[cabbagepatch31]

mate don't worry about it!!! honestly for my first 6 months in NA i was either nodding out in meetings, popping out for a pipe (i was addicted to crack as well) or just falling asleep cos i hadn't slept in days and run out of crack. no one was ever anything but nice to me.

fuckng hell man. well done. i do think readiness can play a part but i don't really know as i only went to rehab once and had no idea if i was ready. my parents changed the locks to my house (they'd been paying my mortgage and bills after i lost my job) so i had to either go to rehab or be homeless with nothing. after rehab i had to go live with them, a 5 hour train journey from where i was living when i was using. if i'd have had to go back to my place i don't reckon i'd have fared better than you.

i put in the work after rehab though. tbh my life got so much better even while i was still in there, not having to whore myself out and actually having hope for the first time in a long time was enough to make me want to give recovery the best shot i could.

it got easier and harder in waves for me. the thing i found hardest was all the stuff i hadn't processed emotionally while using was waiting for me. and my brain didn't start processing them while i was in rehab, oh no that would be too easy, it waited til i got out. i honestly thought all the shit was never going to end, it was relentless. i was sure i was gonna use so many times and honestly i have no idea how i didn't. i truly learned the meaning of the term white knuckling it.

i was in rehab for 2 months and was definitely still completely obsessed when i got out. tbh i'm still obsessed with it in a way, but i just don't want to use it the vast majority of the time. i think by about month 4 cravings were getting fewer and further between. months 5 and 6 i thought i was fucking free. then something triggered my ptsd in a big way and i felt back at square 1. i spent a month suffering then got medicated and referred for more therapy for my ptsd.

then i was basically free for a while, and got what i thought was an ace new job. turned out the boss was an abusive cunt. from jan 2020 i spent 3 months wanting to score on the way to and from work- there were some spots on my route. i felt sure every day i'd do it. i finally broke after 18 months clean. didn't do what i wanted but i did again the next day and the next. then lockdown hit and i went back to my parents. got away from there just in the nick of time. had another lapse of about a week last september for reasons i still don't fully understand, more self destructive than anything. since then i think i've accepted me and heroin are done. i still think about it but it didn't once do what i had wanted it to so i doubt it ever will again.

probably not the answer you were hoping for. but if i was like 'oh i was fine in 2 weeks' you'd know i was full of shit. you want this. you've done really well so far. you will get cravings. keep busy so you have less mental space to act on cravings if you get them.

I think my age and naivety had a lot to do with rehab not working for me, as well. All those 6 times going to rehab were in the first 3 years of my using and I was in my early twenties. Each time I would go voluntarily, but I knew I was going to relapse when I got home. There was more than 1 time I actually planned for someone to pick my up from the airport with a shot ready for me. I also wasn’t on felony probation then, either…things are a lot different now. I have way too much to lose.

I have thought about maybe moving. But honestly, for me, I think having to restart somewhere and the uncertainty that brings with it would cause a lot of stress and therefore possibly a relapse. I think staying here, where I have established my life, my job, and my support system is best for me. Luckily, like I said before, none of my friends or family use, so that isn’t something I would have to escape.

I do think my anxiety plays a HUGE roll in my using. My anxiety is so bad, that I can only take downers. Uppers would raise my anxiety so much that it would be unbearable. I’ve tried buspar (I think that’s how it’s spelled? Lol) and clonidine. Buspar did nothing, clonidine actually helped, but only for about a month before my body got used to it. My doctor said that’s very common with clonidine. Do you have any recommendations for managing anxiety? Especially during the first few months clean. Every time I got clean in the past for a month or so in rehabs, I felt like I was going insane my anxiety was so high!

I’m glad to hear that you have decided to close the book on heroin. It’s very impressive that you were able to quit quickly after your lapses! Was heroin your drug of choice you would say, or crack? Which one was harder for you to get off?

 

[Jabberwocky]

I think my age and naivety had a lot to do with rehab not working for me, as well. All those 6 times going to rehab were in the first 3 years of my using and I was in my early twenties. Each time I would go voluntarily, but I knew I was going to relapse when I got home. There was more than 1 time I actually planned for someone to pick my up from the airport with a shot ready for me. I also wasn’t on felony probation then, either…things are a lot different now. I have way too much to lose.

yep that will certainly help your motivation!! i went to rehab at 32 after 6 years on the dark, but i had been using other drugs daily since i was 16, basically cycled through all the downers and ended up on heroin.

i got really lucky to get out without a criminal record. on my 3rd day in rehab the police finally caught up about some crimes i definitely was doing and let me off cos i was in rehab (and my parents dealt with them, thank fuck i didn't have to!!). had been arrested but only cautioned, and was having them knocking round all the time for bullshit reasons so i was on borrowed time with the law.

I have thought about maybe moving. But honestly, for me, I think having to restart somewhere and the uncertainty that brings with it would cause a lot of stress and therefore possibly a relapse. I think staying here, where I have established my life, my job, and my support system is best for me. Luckily, like I said before, none of my friends or family use, so that isn’t something I would have to escape.

if my family weren't up here i don't think i'd have moved back. moving to somewhere you know noone and basically have no support network would definitely not be useful when trying to get into long term recovery.

Do you have any recommendations for managing anxiety?

meditation and exercise work best for me. generally as your mood improves and your brain chemicals even out it will get easier to manage.

I’m glad to hear that you have decided to close the book on heroin. It’s very impressive that you were able to quit quickly after your lapses! Was heroin your drug of choice you would say, or crack? Which one was harder for you to get off?

yeah i got lucky that i reined it in on my lapses. the first one i just got lucky, second just wasn't that enjoyable, the only satisying bit was one lot of crack i got but my dad is on my bank account and can see every cash withdrawal and knowing that it would raise eyebrows saved me from losing my shit.

my DOC was definitely heroin, that's the one i found harder to say good bye to. i was only badly addicted to crack for just over a year but because it destroyed me so quickly, and so comprehensively, it was easier to quit. heroin i was functional on, good job, paying my bills etc, so it was harder to admit it was bad for me. but it was, i hated myself about it for the whole time i was on it, its so nice not to feel like that any more.

 

[cabbagepatch31]

yep that will certainly help your motivation!! i went to rehab at 32 after 6 years on the dark, but i had been using other drugs daily since i was 16, basically cycled through all the downers and ended up on heroin.

i got really lucky to get out without a criminal record. on my 3rd day in rehab the police finally caught up about some crimes i definitely was doing and let me off cos i was in rehab (and my parents dealt with them, thank fuck i didn't have to!!). had been arrested but only cautioned, and was having them knocking round all the time for bullshit reasons so i was on borrowed time with the law.


if my family weren't up here i don't think i'd have moved back. moving to somewhere you know noone and basically have no support network would definitely not be useful when trying to get into long term recovery.


meditation and exercise work best for me. generally as your mood improves and your brain chemicals even out it will get easier to manage.


yeah i got lucky that i reined it in on my lapses. the first one i just got lucky, second just wasn't that enjoyable, the only satisying bit was one lot of crack i got but my dad is on my bank account and can see every cash withdrawal and knowing that it would raise eyebrows saved me from losing my shit.

my DOC was definitely heroin, that's the one i found harder to say good bye to. i was only badly addicted to crack for just over a year but because it destroyed me so quickly, and so comprehensively, it was easier to quit. heroin i was functional on, good job, paying my bills etc, so it was harder to admit it was bad for me. but it was, i hated myself about it for the whole time i was on it, its so nice not to feel like that any more.

That’s sooooo good they let it slide because you were in rehab! I know someone right now who just ran over a woman and killed her because he was under the influence…obviously a terrible situation. It’s his first offense, and he’s going off to treatment for a couple YEARS to get a lighter sentence. I unfortunately got the judge who prefers jail over rehab >:-(. Don’t even get my started on how backwards that is. I got 4 (!!!) years probation for RESIDUE on a baggie. I think it’s so wrong how this country treats drug addicts. I’m not a violent criminal. I have never stolen or hurt anyone in general to get drugs. But that’s how the criminal justice system sees me, I guess. Honestly, being on probation is the most stressful situation I’ve been in to date, and makes me want to use more than anything!! How backwards is that?

that’s good that your parents had access to your bank account so they can keep you accountable. I only have a year left of probation, so I’m thinking I will probably need to have something/someone to keep me accountable. I’m worried that getting off will be a huge trigger for me to use.

heroin is my DOC as well. I used to mix it with Xanax, but I was crashing cars and even wandered off and disappeared a couple times because I was so messed up. That last time was enough for me to stop with bars! I know I’m a drug addict for sure, but heroin seems to be the only thing I can’t put down.

What has been your experience with PAWS? Pretty bad, or manageable? I know when I have had clean time in the past, I have a really hard time sleeping. I’ve heard that can last 1-2 years!! I hope not… that’s definitely a trigger for me too. I need my sleep! Lol

 

[Jabberwocky]

hey how are you getting on? sorry for the delay in my reply i've been away for work with little internet.

definitely look for things to keep you accountable once your probation is up. you need someone you can trust, how the fuck you find that i don't know. i'm lucky my dad is pretty straight up.

PAWs for me was mostly manageable but it certainly has its moments. i had a really hard time sleeping too. in fact the whole reason i got majorly into downers, eventually leading to heroin, was cos i had bad insomnia from since i was a young child. so i was really nervous about it coming into recovery. it took a while to adjust- about 4 months of pretty patchy but mostly OK sleep, gradually improving. but once i had been fully abstinent for a while i started sleeping better than i'd ever slept using, and feeling more refreshed and energetic.

 

[cabbagepatch31]

hey how are you getting on? sorry for the delay in my reply i've been away for work with little internet.

definitely look for things to keep you accountable once your probation is up. you need someone you can trust, how the fuck you find that i don't know. i'm lucky my dad is pretty straight up.

PAWs for me was mostly manageable but it certainly has its moments. i had a really hard time sleeping too. in fact the whole reason i got majorly into downers, eventually leading to heroin, was cos i had bad insomnia from since i was a young child. so i was really nervous about it coming into recovery. it took a while to adjust- about 4 months of pretty patchy but mostly OK sleep, gradually improving. but once i had been fully abstinent for a while i started sleeping better than i'd ever slept using, and feeling more refreshed and energetic.

Doing well! I did slip up the other day but only got a little and haven’t copped again since.

Yeah I know I’m fixing to have lots of trouble sleeping myself. Every time in treatment, I would have such a hard time sleeping, even after all the pretty hardcore (non-narcotic of course) sleeping pills I was taking!

I can feel my anxiety getting reallllly bad. I was at work yesterday working on a really long project, and I felt so anxious I wanted to explode. I think I’ve mentioned this before, but my anxiety is definitely one of my biggest triggers. I don’t have panic attacks, but quite often I will get spells like the one just mentioned.

the thing I’m looking forward too the most is getting my energy back. I get so freaking lazy and so unmotivated to do anything. Also excited to get my sex drive back! That’s been almost nonexistent for the past year or so.

I want sobriety so badly. I know heroin brought nothing but terrible things to my life.

do you go to meetings/do step work? If so, does it help you? And if you don’t, what is it that you do to stay clean. I know all the time people say a “dry drunk” always relapses, but I’ve known people who have just stayed abstinent and have been clean a long time.