TRT and Collagen Synthesis

Foreigner

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Does TRT really suppress collagen synthesis of tendons, ligaments, and skin? I find the studies on this so confusing, mostly because they are on animals, but different studies say different things. There doesn't seem to be a consensus.

The TRT community on the internet tends to take a catastrophic view of things.

I know that TRT enhances masculine features but I wonder if it ages joints and skin more rapidly?
 
TRT probably not. I mean, it's all anecdotal, but plenty of people blast grams of test, ego lift like idiots, and never tear anything. I don't think it has much as effect as people think. I've always found the watery effect of test aromatization into E always kept my joints feeling good.

Same with skin: it'll age you if you're blasting grams of tren for sure, but the entire purpose of TRT is to help the body find homeostasis, not superphysiological doses, so it shouldn't do much of anything negative.
 
Did not know that, the more I'm learning about it the more I'm discouraged to try
 
So you become infertile, bald, wrinkly, shrunk test, high BP and blood clots what the hell
 
Yea I’m personally in the camp that one should do everything they can to optimize natural T, and only when all of that fails does someone begin to think of it. Anytime I entertain the idea I think about it like any other drug, do I want to have to rely on this forever?

-GC
 
My T levels are normal even though I'm in my early 30s I feel I'd like them to be on the high side but the more I keep researching about them they sound pretty horrible in regards to bouncing back if you decide to come off them
 
Does TRT really suppress collagen synthesis of tendons, ligaments, and skin? I find the studies on this so confusing, mostly because they are on animals, but different studies say different things. There doesn't seem to be a consensus.

The TRT community on the internet tends to take a catastrophic view of things.

I know that TRT enhances masculine features but I wonder if it ages joints and skin more rapidly?

I remember a discussion I had with an Orthopedic Surgeon, where he stated "all steroids compromise collagen matrix in tendons", not limited to anabolic steroids, but inclusive of glucocorticoids etc...
Whether TRT doses act in a similar manner, I might be sceptical..
 
What I know is that Testosterone does suppress collagen production, but in practice this gets balanced by Estradiol when you're on TRT, as some of your Test will be aromatised into Estradiol.

This goes out of the window when you use higher dosages, AIs (aromatase inhibitors), or compounds that do not aromatise at all (DHT derivatives) or very little (Nandrolone) or aromatise to weaker Estrogens like Boldenone.
To be considered also that people convert Test to DHT at different rates and DHT is a very strong androgen it has a negative impact on tendon structure.

Anecdotally, adding 120mg Nandrolone Decanoate to my 150mg TRT for 2 months took over 5 years of the appearance of my skin, thicker, more elastic, wrinkles filled up, pores shrunk.

Rather than this being a direct action of Nandrolone, I speculate this is due to the 5 alpha reduced version of Nandrolone, DHN, being a very weak androgen reducing the androgenic load on my skin by competing for ARs (androgen receptors) with DHT.

IME, AAS that will age your skin fast are Masteron and Proviron.
 
Seems like there is a variety of data on the subject, for instance, this is suggesting that it increases it:

"[H]igh doses of anabolic androgenic steroids enhance collagen synthesis especially in soft connective tissues, possibly through reversing the action of glucocorticosteroids on collagen metabolism."


I think that much like how other hormones work (i.e., where different concentrations of a given hormone have starkly different effects), the effect of testosterone on collagen synthesis almost certainly isn't as simple as it "decreases (or increases) collagen synthesis".
 
Is there like a precursor to testosterone, instead of adding T perhaps using the thing that actually creates and accelerates testosterone?
 
I think that much like how other hormones work (i.e., where different concentrations of a given hormone have starkly different effects), the effect of testosterone on collagen synthesis almost certainly isn't as simple as it "decreases (or increases) collagen synthesis".
AFAIK Testosterone and other AAS don't decrease collagen production, they change the structure of it.
For a few steroids we know that they change it in a negative way, ie they become more rigid and prone to tearing up under tension.
 
If you are doing actually medically followed TRT, the purpose is to maintain a physiologically normal amount of testosterone. So there should be no major effect on collagen production or structure whatsoever.

For reference I am in my early 30s, generally get a good diet, weigh about 70kg, give or take, and take 80mg testosterone cypionate, once a week, IM in the thigh. Initially I was on 100mg but the dose was determined to be too high with blood testing. This was initiated when my blood testosterone was shown to be normal... for a prepubescent girl. Contributing factors could be genetics (my father was also on TRT), my long term methadone use, or a spinal injury resulting in paraplegia,) I could never gain weight from exercise or overeating, and could sleep all day quite easily, but mentally I was fine and had a sex drive.
A couple weeks of therapy later I felt I had more energy and an even more elevated sex drive. As of now (~3 years later) I have no side effects to report.
Admittedly, I have on occasion taken up to 200mg as a dose, but I do not notice any major differences (mind you, as a paraplegic I am not in a position to pursue gainz in the gym), and avoid it as such.

Any good TRT program will, especially in initial titrations, monitor testosterone levels (esp. peak/trough values) with the intent being to keep the dose at a physiologically reasonable value, neither too high nor too low, and blood tests done semi-regularly to ensure the levels are appropriate.

Now if you are using TRT as an excuse to use elevated levels of anabolic agents to promote muscle growth... that's a different story. I would assume that any effects are dose related though. I.e. moderately elevated levels will produce less acne, collagen issues, and so forth, compared to heavy overuse (like taking >100mg a day of test enanthate/cypionate IM).

Is there like a precursor to testosterone, instead of adding T perhaps using the thing that actually creates and accelerates testosterone?
The immediate precursors are androstenedione and androstenediol.
Dehydroepiandrosterone or DHEA is one step further removed.
I believe that unfortunately only androstenedione has studies showing it increase testosterone levels (when used orally) and at high doses. But other studies show no effect at all. And it is illegal in the US.
Androstenediol does not seem to have anabolic activity (was tested in monkeys for protection vs radiation - they would no doubt notice steroid effects) and instead has some estrogenic activity, but its methylated analogue is active.
DHEA is basically totally useless to increase testosterone in practice.
And in medical practice, none of these are used with any regularity. For testosterone deficiency the usual treatment is exclusively testosterone.
If any of them worked as effective prodrugs it would have been documented by now and they would probably be more widely (ab)used, even in medicine and also even in veterinary medicine..
 
Is there like a precursor to testosterone, instead of adding T perhaps using the thing that actually creates and accelerates testosterone?
4-AD is a prohormone to testosterone but holds no benefits relative to using Testosterone, has all the same side effects and then some more.

It was sold OTC as a prohormone before the prohormone ban in the USA, I think it is still sold in some other countries.

AFAIK, No reason to use it really, unless you need to travel and you're going to a place where 4AD is legal but you don't have a prescription for your Testosterone.
 
FFS people, I'm asking about T replacement, as in therapy, not juicing with supraphysiologic doses. Also some of the stuff said here is stereotypical crap from the 1990's. The protocol I'm designing involves taking HCG simultaneously, so there's no ball shrinkage and other stuff.
 
Mmhmm. Hence roided out dudes having lots of wrinkles and lines on their face.

-GC

Yea I’m personally in the camp that one should do everything they can to optimize natural T, and only when all of that fails does someone begin to think of it. Anytime I entertain the idea I think about it like any other drug, do I want to have to rely on this forever?

-GC

"Natural T" won't help you if your levels are chronically low. Low T is just as a bad as T that's too high. Yes, I would rather rely on exogenous T for the rest of my life than have the problems associated with low T.

No offense but you should not be offering steroid advice in a thread like this when you are clearly operating on outdated/stereotyped information. It's attitudes like yours that have perpetuated MDs never prescribing T for men who really need it. Not to mention your opinionated responses are irrelevant to what I asked.
 
I'm on TRT and find no difference in my skin, gums, hair etc.

IIRC gum/teeth health is mostly type I collagen whereas joints are type II. Could be mistaken. Which is to say that if T affects collagen development then it may do so to one type less so than others.

I've been trying to find more precise info about T's effect on fibroblast activity but there is so much conflicting info.

As above, I think managing healthy estrogen levels while on TRT is key to joint maintenance. The whole reason I'm considering TRT is because I have osteoporosis from years of corticosteroid use and my T is also in the low end of normal now. The last thing I need is to add tendonitis or ligamentitis to my repertoire.
 
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TRT probably not. I mean, it's all anecdotal, but plenty of people blast grams of test, ego lift like idiots, and never tear anything. I don't think it has much as effect as people think. I've always found the watery effect of test aromatization into E always kept my joints feeling good.

Same with skin: it'll age you if you're blasting grams of tren for sure, but the entire purpose of TRT is to help the body find homeostasis, not superphysiological doses, so it shouldn't do much of anything negative.

Reading some of the user reports online, they'll talk about the levels of T they're pushing + their daily lifts and I'm like... are you sure it's the T affecting your joints and not your insane lifts?

However... there is concern that, while T amps up protein synthesis, it downgrades collagen synthesis. So muscle development begins to outpace tendon/ligament regeneration. Hence the joint inflammation. T for sure supports synovial fluid + the capsule, so the proposed negative effects are all tendon/ligament which points to either a collagen issue or a "lifting too much weight" issue.

I am having difficulty locating reports of non-weight lifters on TRT saying they have joint issues. It's mostly the lifters saying it.

However, the studies are neither here nor there.
 
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