Tripping during challenging kratom taper?

[Anonymous Dissident]

I've been fighting my kratom dependency for almost two months, getting down from 70g+/day to 28g/day as of today. After phasing out my midday dose in favor of black seed oil and low dose DXM, I've had to slow my tapering from removing around 1g per day to 1g every 4-5 days. The thing is, its really getting difficult to continue with this taper after being in it for this long and only getting this far, I feel as though I'm stagnating, despite not backsliding this far.

I'm now in a position where I feel that a good, hard trip might be exactly what I need to hard reboot my cognitive processes and rekindle my determination to beat this addiction. Basically, I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience with psychedelics while fighting to stick to a taper and what the experience was like for then and whether or not it was in any way beneficial. Is it a a reasonable idea? If anyone has any experience with tripping under these circumstances, I'd love to hear about them. Thanks in advance for any responses!

Edit: one of my primary concerns is needing to stop one of my comfort meds (45mg mirtazapine/night for badly needed sleep) for a significant amount of time, as well as possibly cutting out the DXM due to the relatively unknown pharmacology of the compound I have in mind (MEM)

 

[JackARoe]

I always need kratom after the trip. Afterwards I have been using kratom, a small amount of gabapentin and 2 mgs etizolam so I can eat and sleep. I do however go through the whole trip without any but maybe 6 hours before and go the hours tripping.. But after the trip I look forward to that kratom. So I think the only way to do it is whatever taper dose your last dose is make it after the trip. If you have to squirm a little during the trip so be it. You know it is there after.

It is easy to get up to 70 gr a day of kratom. I will say this, using it every 4 hours seems to cause to most uncomfort in between. Cutting out that midday dose is key. The longer you can stretch out dosing the more gradual your body will adjust. Space it out. Tapering is maddening though. If I had the time and money I would just rip it off like an old band aid and be done. (get a cabin for a month ) I know people respond differently to the withdrawal. I have two times a day, 7:00AM and 5:00PM I am always feeling in squirmy in between but also it is not bad for me. Lethargy is my issue, not restlessness. All I really get is sniffles, sneezing, lethargy and malaise. Kratom too close to my sleep makes me wake up, so that 5:00PM dose lasts and takes me till 7:00AM and go to sleep around 11:00PM and sleep till 7:00AM. Sometimes wake up at 3:00AM and take a few tokes and go back to sleep. Now my wife use to shovel it in all day whenever she wanted. Had a jar and spoon and I would guess 50 gr a day, grabbing some ever few hours for 6 years. 4/1/2012 she did a cold turkey. 4 days of squirming in her bed. Restless sleep. A week later she was eating and sleeping normal but had lingering lethargy for 2 weeks. She never looked back and won't touch it. Funny enough she didn't want to spend money on it. But she now uses a lot of kava after she quit drinking. She sips the gunk all day sometimes. I never saw kava sipped. Traditionally it is chugged. lol But hey she quit drinking and kava does not take your soul like alcohol does so it is upward motion.

Good luck AD. I am in almost the same position. I taper and go down too and can get low. But then go back up. lol I use to feel bad about it. But I have stopped in the past and know the dread of withdrawal is worse than the actual withdrawal(for me). So I stick with those two times a day and want off but am ok with that and the little bit of squirming does not bother me. Probably because for 30 years I as either using heroin, methadone or poppy tea. Used poppy tea for years. Stopping that hurt. lol Very dramatic. So when I get that kratom withdrawal it feels like a jealous little sister of a harder drug trying to be tough and I try and shrug it off.

TLDR , yes by all means trip but make sure whatever kratom ration you have is schedule after the trip. Add in a benzo or something too to eat and sleep too.

 

[Branggen]

My recommendation would be stop the taper and wait until you are comfortable on the new dose, itll probably take 2 weeks or so

I waited until I was actually fully off to do the shroom trip, and it was miraculous

 

[Bitchniggaz]

How many years did it take to reach a daily dose of 70g?
Ive been a daily kratom user for about 4months now.
I stay around 10-15g most days with about 1day a week i might go higher when i want a strong buzz in the evening.

Ive cut out a heavy ket and cannabis habit with kratom and low dose testosterone.

I have zero need for other drugs and feel very good in this habit atm.
But like everything it will probably become dark after awhile esp if my doses keep increasing.

But i usually take 2-3different strains on a daily basis and always buy from different vebdors to get as much variations in the kunds of kratom i indulge.

 

[bongdong]

@Anonymous Dissident I would recommend against it. It seems that you are still on a lot of different stuff, but even if it were 'only' kratom in the tapering process: the pessimistic/depressive outlook on life while kratom withdrawal is no joke in my experience, which brings me to the next thing: you seem to have quite some expectation regarding your trip. Psychedelics seem to have a tendency to make you eat your own wishful demands, but in a nasty way. Chances are that you won't really trip at all (mirtazapine + kratom (withdrawal) + dxm), that it will result in some dulled mindfuck with no sharp introspective component or it will manifest and potentiate your personal hell, but maybe you are out for an ass whipping, i don't know? What do you think are the chances of having (physiological and mentally) a divine insightful happy journey? Making last minute changes of substances your body is used to (and suddenly not getting) in order to prepare the stage for igniting a psychedelic explosion in the hope for changes with problematic substance use might be a recipe for <you fill in the details>

How about taking a potential trip as an incentive to get on with your taper; earn it, prepare for it, then go for it. It's just an idea..

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

I would hold off on tripping for now, until you are completely off and free from Kratom dependence or addiction. Try chewing paan or betel nut?



The drugs are not going to go anywhere unless you live with someone that steals your drugs?

 

[Anonymous Dissident]

Thanks for the well thought out responses everyone! I'll respond to everyone later this afternoon or evening after I get some work in the yard done.

 

[Anonymous Dissident]

@Branggen : I'm fairly stable, reducing my doses by .5g every 4-5 days and not experiencing severe withdrawal symptoms for the most part, just perpetually somewhat uncomfortable.

@Bitchniggaz : I used kratom without any real addiction until I wrecked my neck about a year ago. My use went from 7.5-10g 2 out of every three nights on average. Due to many traditional painkillers causing me seizures, I ended up using kratom 3x/day for pain control after my morphine ran out. Oxycodone, hydrocodone and tramadol all lower my seizure threshold to the point I've had seizures from all 3 of them. My doses went from around 8g 3x/day to 20-25g 3x/day after a few months. Once my pain started to subside, I knew it was time to get off of the daily use, so I started my taper a couple months ago.

@bongdong : I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm feeling desperate or hopeless, it's more a case of frustration with a side of ennui. As far as expectations for a trip go, I don't have anything set in stone in mind, but I'm always prepared for a difficult, introspective trip. Keep in mind I find there to be a very wide difference between a challenging trip and a true bad trip. A very challenging trip was an intrinsic part of my quitting cocaine a decade and a half ago. Getting my ass handed to me by psilocybin was exactly the impetus I needed to really put in perspective the damage I was doing to both my life and the people I was dealing coke and MDMA to to pay for my own habit. Without that experience, I honestly don't know if I would have been able to get off of cocaine and more importantly, stay off of cocaine. The carrot and ssd's tick approach isn't one I had considered, but is definitely food for thought...

@PriestTheyCalledHim : I live with my disabled brother, two dogs and my parrot, though I do have a friend who is still evacuated due to wildfire staying with me, but he's a genuinely good guy and not the thieving type. There is, if I'm honest, a bit of the "burning a whole in my pocket" phenomenon going on as I've been intrigued by MEM since I first came across it in PiHKAL many, many years ago and never thought I'd get a chance to try it. I'm allergic to tree nuts, so, although I find Betel Nut interesting, it isn't worth the risk of anaphylaxis is too high for me bvb to risk it.

A few clarifications:
1. I'm not planning on tripping in the immediate future, but I'd like to be able to trip for my birthday at the end of October. You only turn 38 once, and besides last year following my injury last year, it had been a tradition for me to do a birthday trip going all the way back to when I turned 16. I expect to still be doing my taper at that point, so I decided to get some second opinions so to speak.
2. I'll wait on the MEM *IF* I decide to go through with the trip and use a compound I'm intimately familiar with like San Pedro or allylescaline, that I know wont interact with low dose DXM from 1st hand experience. In retrospect, throwing a little studied compound I've never tried into my chemical mix is a recipe for disaster.

I'm sure I'll have more to say on the topic in the near future, and my mindset in the near future will be a definite deciding factor in if I go ahead with the trip. Further consideration is a prerequisite for my ultimate decision!

 

[Hexagon Sun]

I dont have kratom experience so take it with a grain of salt, but have you looked into iboga? It seems it a godsend from opioid addictions, even in microdoses

 

[Anonymous Dissident]

I dont have kratom experience so take it with a grain of salt, but have you looked into iboga? It seems it a godsend from opioid addictions, even in microdoses

I've given ibogaine some consideration, but due to my lower seizure threshold and the risks involved with its use, particularly seizures, things would have to get far worse for me before I'd chance it.

 

[Dick&Warty]

I would wait until you're opiate free. Whenever I've tripped and been on opiates at the same time, I've ended up being overcome with feelings of hopelessness when it's time to dose / avoid withdrawal.

 

[Branggen]

@Branggen : I'm fairly stable, reducing my doses by .5g every 4-5 days and not experiencing severe withdrawal symptoms for the most part, just perpetually somewhat uncomfortable.

Thats probably a good thing, slow and steady wins the race as they say. If you get used to that discomfort itll be a great relief when it starts to go away, my taper took me about a year and I was on 100mg methadone

 

[perpetualdawn]

I'm going to go against the advice of some others in this thread and encourage you to trip. I don't know how worthy my advice is though because I've never had an opiod/kratom addiction.

I've found 4-AcO-DMT particularly to have anti-addictive properties. My guess is that it (and likely others in the tryptamine class) share some of Ibogaine's anti-addictive properties, and much less of the risk. I'm sure it's not as potent in killing addictions as Ibogaine, but then again, far less likely to trigger seizures or heart attack.

When I took 4-AcO-DMT after a fairly long period of very little psychedelic usage, about a decade ago, it totally killed some mild alcohol and food addiction (habitually overeating and packing on the lbs) I was building up. I know that is small potatoes compared to the opioid system, so take it FWIW.

My gut feeling is that these drugs are also useful in facing/treating addiction: LSD, 5-MeO-DMT, Mushrooms
Less useful IMO would be ones like the 2C-series, AL-LAD, 4-sub-MET

This is all very speculative, but I do also really think there's something to it. I believe 4-AcO-DMT is useful in treating addiction.

 

[Anonymous Dissident]

I'm going to go against the advice of some others in this thread and encourage you to trip. I don't know how worthy my advice is though because I've never had an opiod/kratom addiction.

I've found 4-AcO-DMT particularly to have anti-addictive properties. My guess is that it (and likely others in the tryptamine class) share some of Ibogaine's anti-addictive properties, and much less of the risk. I'm sure it's not as potent in killing addictions as Ibogaine, but then again, far less likely to trigger seizures or heart attack.

When I took 4-AcO-DMT after a fairly long period of very little psychedelic usage, about a decade ago, it totally killed some mild alcohol and food addiction (habitually overeating and packing on the lbs) I was building up. I know that is small potatoes compared to the opioid system, so take it FWIW.

My gut feeling is that these drugs are also useful in facing/treating addiction: LSD, 5-MeO-DMT, Mushrooms
Less useful IMO would be ones like the 2C-series, AL-LAD, 4-sub-MET

This is all very speculative, but I do also really think there's something to it. I believe 4-AcO-DMT is useful in treating addiction.

That's interesting, you're not the only person that's mentioned the anti-addiction qualities of 4-AcO-DMT. I wonder if its simply a matter of perspective like what I experienced from psilocybin that was a major factor in my getting off of cocaine, or if it has some anti-addiction effect like ibogaine, or if it's a combination of the two...

 

[perpetualdawn]

That's interesting, you're not the only person that's mentioned the anti-addiction qualities of 4-AcO-DMT. I wonder if its simply a matter of perspective like what I experienced from psilocybin that was a major factor in my getting off of cocaine, or if it has some anti-addiction effect like ibogaine, or if it's a combination of the two...

My opinion is that it's a combination of the two. There's definitely the perspective component, like any good psychedelic, no doubt about that. But I felt like there was something also almost mechanical about it, like my cravings were just cleaned up/weakened after tripping, in the absence of willfull manipulation, and it lasted for a long enough that I was able to recalibrate my habits. Kind of like how I imagine ibogaine works (no personal experience with ibogaine here), but I'd also imagine less potent in that department. This is all speculation, obviously not science. But where else do we start!

I'd expect it to be not much different from psilocybin since they are chemically so close, but I've never noticed this specifically with mushrooms, so maybe there is some magic to the 4-AcO-DMT.

AFAIK psilocybin is being studied right now as a therapy for addiction.