Benzos Triazolobenzodiazepines and undesirable personality changes (or, Xanax vs Valium)

[Vastness]

I am not majorly experienced with benzodiazepines but I have acquired some on a few occasions intended to be used as safety nets for either excess and potentially dangerous stimulation on stimulants, OR to abort something undesirable or threatening to become undesirable on psychedelics.

The first time I did this I went with Xanax (Alprazolam) for it's quick onset and short duration. However I found that I was far too tempted to use them more often than I had originally planned, and far too prone to behaving in an unusual way. Fortunately I never did anything that bad or that I had cause to regret, but I did end up with several very hazy memories where I was clearly altered and, more concerning to me, not aware that I was altered. There is just something about the effect of Xanax that to me is unnatural and somewhat sinister, like the anxiolytic effect just penetrates too deeply and switches off some deeper parts of our own self awareness which, generally, I would like to keep turned on. I eventually flushed the remaining Xanax I had which is the first and only time that I have ever flushed drugs because I started to feel like taking them even rarely like a few times a month was changing me in some way.

Anyway, this time in anticipation of a new year's drugs holiday I had planned for myself, and wanting to still have some kind of safety net drug for harm reduction purposes, I went with Diazepam (Valium) instead. So far my experience has been that this just feels a lot more natural, and while it still has the desirable sedating physiological effects, that deeper layer of self-awareness which Alprazolam just switches off seems to remain relatively untouched.

Of course, given my lack of experience I can't say for an absolute fact that this is something intrinsic to the drug - possibly also I've been a little more cautious this time round... however I am curious, is my perception of the difference in the subjective psychological effect of these substances reflected by other peoples' experiences? And, if so, is there something about the entire triazolo- class which causes the negative effects I mentioned, or something specific to Xanax?

 

[Hodor]

What were the doses for each? Maybe you just took too much alprazolam?

Generally I don‘t think you can say that diazepam is more „clear-headed“ than alprazolam... in fact, one of alp‘s main selling points is that it‘s supposed to produce relatively little sedation with strong anxiolytic effects.

It is possible that some people might find diazepam easier to manage due to its very long half-life - alp‘s shorter HL might lead to a greater urge to redose, and re-dosing a benzo is always tricky, since you never know when you might end up with „runaway re-dosing“ - becoming so disinhibited that you can no longer stop yourself from dosing more and more.

On the other hand, if you take alprazolam before bedtime you should have mostly metabolized it by next morning, whereas an equivalent dose of diazepam might leave you severely hung over.

At any rate, I also don‘t think you can generalize across all triazolo-benzos - while they are all relatively short-lasting, they run the gamut from „selectively anxiolytic“ (ex.: pyrazolam) to „selectively sedative/hypnotic“ (ex.: triazolam).

 

[Lorne???]

^ Diazepam’s T1/2 is irrelevant! Alright?

It is a fast acting, lipophillic “classical” Benzodiazepine that rapidly penetrates the CNS and the exits where it is extensively redistributed and useless unless you are taking it chronic( or high doses) it wears off just as fast

T1/2 is NOT the same as duration of action.

Alprazolam is known for being an effective anxiolytic, with only minor side effects at standard(clinical doses)

Diazepam has possibly a broader spectrum, though that is it w/ subchronic dosing

As said, you should not not generalize the Tribenzo’s anymore than Nitrobenzodiazepines.

What doses btw?

 

[Vastness]

Thank you both for your responses.

I would say Alprazolam dosages were between 0.5mg to 2mg, Diazepam 10mg to 20mg - this is per single dose, and while I managed to avoid any runaway redosing binges I've probably gone up to maybe 6mg Alprazolam in a day and probably 40mg Diazepam, but these were rare occasions.

I realise while writing this that if 0.5mg Alprazolam can be said to be roughly equivalent to 10mg Diazepam, then dosage might play a role in the effects I'm describing.

However, I think that also, for me at least, the fact that Alprazolam produces minimal sedation is problematic, whereas Diazepam does produce a more perceptible feeling of being altered... The longer duration of action and comparatively slow fade of Diazepam's effects also seems to just play better with my brain. It's funny because I would have always thought previously that I would prefer to have less sedation, and more anxiolysis, but it seems in actual fact that I find this effect to be more disconcerting than the opposite... in my limited experience of course.

 

[Lorne???]

2mg alprazolam= 30-40mg, and triple that ~100mg Dzp

So dosage plays a dose

Anyway, diazepam fears off as fast as alrprazolam generally though can vary of course from person to person

 

[Vastness]

^ Really?? It was my understanding that Alprazolam lasted about 4 hours subjectively, whereas Diazepam was supposed to last a little longer, even around 12 hours.

Subjectively I have been able to feel Xanax actually wearing off, but for me, Valium wears off slowly enough that I have never really been able to feel it - at least, not as distinctly or noticeably at all.

On the other hand, I have experienced taking Valium before going to sleep and waking up still pretty foggy and sedated.

 

[MoreFeens4Morphine]

Damn you should've just sold them instead of flushing them what a waste! LOL

Anyway, I've never really experienced "personality changes" on ANY benzo and I've done literally all of them. I think this is just a perfect example of how drugs affect each individual differently.

Personally, the only personality change I get when I take xanax is I simply don't give a fuck. My house could burn down and I'd still be in my couch just waiting for the fire to go out lol. then again, I take about 10-12mg of xanax in one dose.

As for the valium, whoever said "T1/2" doesn't matter is a load of shit. half life matters a hell of a lot. taking valium as a sleep aid will typically leave you foggy in the morning. you seem to be having better luck with the diazepam so I would just stick with that.

Stay safe,
-MF4M

 

[truenamebrand]

I was on benzos for the better part of 14 years, and most of that time was diazepam. Towards the end as my benzo tolerance was just out of control, I was scripted sixty 2mg clonazepam per month.

I can tell you, with absolute certainty, that clonazepam profoundly altered my personality and decision-making in a way that diazepam did not. I was anything but responsible with my benzo use, including all those years on diazepam, and it never really caused me any problems. However, once I was using clonazepam instead, my girlfriend told me I was a nasty, vicious person. I also had belligerent outbursts at work, including going off and cursing at the head of HR. I also had several car accidents in the span of a few weeks. That never happened on diazepam.

Clonazepam and alprazolam are both much stronger than diazepam, and so, given my own personal experience, I’m not really surprised you felt such a significant difference between the two.

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

Don't bite my head off Lorne?? but I believe that Diazepam has lasting active metabolites that might contribute to a "smoother" comedown which although is just one facet of the drug, might make a slight difference in how it effects you. And don't let anyone ever doubt your decision to flush the unused pills as it's admirable you were able to do so.

 

[Nod Alot]

Thought I’d chime in on benzo usage: be VERY careful about how often you use them and take MANY breaks! I was on 1mg Xanax 2x a day for 5 months. My last refill ran out so I did a (quick) taper, but taper nonetheless, and had a seizure on day 4 of WDing. Not fun. Hit my head on my nightstand and bit the fuck outta my tongue. Be safe friend.

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

Another issue with benzo W/D is that common anti-epileptic meds like Tegretol (carbamezipine) is ineffective at controlling seizures from bezo W/D so there are no magic bullets to ride it out besides cross tolerant benzos.

 

[Lorne???]

^ Yep

And bite your head off? No one flushes pills round these parts! (Joking, joking)

Yeah, it takes time for nordazepam to build though(it's pretty much the only meaningful metabolite) that is why I said a "single dose"

Took Valium recently, they didn't stretch long because of tolerance however they did fade out more smoothly than alprazolam, certainly

I just don't think when you're comparing 10mg Valium to almost any dose of Xanax, it would matter

And Clonazepam seems to be more likely to cause paradoxical effects(even though it's been demonstrated to be more effective long term)

 

[Runningfox]

I took one xanax n lost 3 days of my life. Complete blackout.

A separate dose saw me driving irratically stealing gas and hitting a post as I drove away from the station. They busted me for the theft and never ran a tox on.me.

Lesser benzos-- diazepam clonazepam & lorazepam saw me falling without fainting first n led to several serious injuries/ one unconscious episode in which I was raped before I came to

Benzos are not safe for some ppl
Xanax is deadly.

 

[Lorne???]

Clonazepam hardly qualifies as a "lesser" benzodiazepine. All of them(pretty much) can produce wild effects at the proper dose, w/out tolerance/dependency

 

[JacksinPA]

I have some interesting stories to relate to my use of benzos over the years.

In the 70s I started being prescribed flurazepam (Dalmane) for sleep. While this is supposed to be for short-term use, I got into the habit of using it every night, especially when I was traveling either for business or on vacation. In the 80s I was seeing a different MD & he put me on temazepam for the same indication. It didn't work as well as the Dalmane. About the same time I was experiencing frequent panic attacks. They tried me on propranolol but that didn't do anything. So they startied me on alprazolam (Xanax). I've been on it ever since. I have to get up to urinate in the middle of the night so to get back to sleep I take 2 mg Xanax. I read & in an hour I am sound asleep & dreaming like crazy right away. It is one of the characteristics of Xanax that it puts you right into Stage 3 or REM sleep, which is very good.

The thing that has me curious is that 2 tears ago I asked for & got a prescription for flurazepam. Even 2 caps had no effect.

What I'm curious about is the separate facts that a) I have developed tolerance to one benzo (flurazepam) but b) I have not developed any tolerance to Xanax. Anyone have thoughts or experience with this?

Regarding blackouts from Xanax, I had gotten up in the morning & was sitting on my porch having my juice. There was a pipe lying on the porch. I got up to trim a shrub. I knew that pipe was there but I stepped on it anyway. Down I went, breaking my left thigh bone into dozens of pieces that required surgery, a steel rod replacement, & 3 1/2 weeks in rehab just to learn how to walk again...with a walker. I call it a senior moment but I am suspicious of the Xanax as was the doctor at the rehab. Another more recent incident had me stopped at a green light to make a left turn into a shopping center. I made the turn but I must have blacked out at the time as there was traffic coming into that intersection from the opposite direction. The collision only involved a new bumper but I didn't get a ticket, mainly because the young guy who had hit me had a suspended DL, so the cop had more things to keep him busy.

 

[JacksinPA]

I never take more than 2 x 1 mg around 3-4 AM. I have had no involvement with diazepam. So I got up probably 5-6 hours after taking it. I don't recall being hung over or groggy. But the connection of the Xanax & the accident is too odd to be a coincidence, as was the blackout while driving.

I'm mostly curious about the lack of tolerance with Xanax as compared to the complete tolerance with flurazepam. But these blackouts concern me as they are unpredictable.

 

[Scrofula]

I never take more than 2 x 1 mg around 3-4 AM.

I'm mostly curious about the lack of tolerance with Xanax as compared to the complete tolerance with flurazepam. But these blackouts concern me as they are unpredictable.

I'm pretty sure 2mg of Xanax at 3am will leave a non-tolerant person too impaired to drive at 9am. Or to trim shrubs. But since you remember everything, like the pipe and the color of the light on your turn, I wouldn't call those "blackouts". That's a bit more like zoning out, or the plain old impairment that comes with depressants like alcohol and benzos.

As for tolerance compared to flurazepam, you're comparing a short-acting drug with a very long acting-drug. Taking flurazepam even three days a week means you're never without drug in your system. That leads to tolerance, and even steady-state levels.

Alprazolam, meanwhile, will be out of your system (mostly) in a day, in time for your next dose. That means tolerance is a lot slower to develop. At the same time, that makes people "feel" the effects each time, and reinforces their use. Tolerance is gradual, but leads to dose increase, a worse withdrawal, and eventually dependence.

So, you're right in that when you first start taking flurazepam, even sleeping for 10 hours, you'll wake up impaired. But after a few weeks your tolerance is such that it doesn't get you to sleep, and you wake up without any impaired effects. Alprazolam at night may leave you impaired early in the morning but fine by noon. (And by nighttime you feel anxious and ready to take one.)