Toxic RCs?

[dopamimetic]

Was just wondering about how predictable and avoidable the toxicity of compounds really is, and how over-focused the pharma industry possibly is on avoiding psychoactive, addictive effects in their new products at the cost of accepting limiting physical side effects. So many of approved medicaments have strong physical side effects and a pretty narrow dose window. Just the first example that comes to my mind as I am on it, tramadol and venlafaxine are roughly equipotent but take too much of vena and you get migraine like headaches. Do that with tramadol and you're high (with a risk for seizure though but I am more referring to things which the majority gets, probably you can never avoid individual bad reactions but many medicines have effects that many users will get). Granted, there's a notorious lack of data about drugs especially RCs, and maybe medicine tends to be used for longer periods of time, yet do I somehow have the impression that a good part of RCs have a striking safety profile given the fact that most of them never went through any real clinical trials if we exclude poorly researched shit like the chloromethcathinones, some noids etc.. e.g. 2F-/DCK are afaik very probably safer than K, the fluoroamphetamines feel more safe (disputed I know).. the diarylethylamines should be safer than arylcyclohexylamines.. even bromadol was nice, just too potent. 4,4'-dmar needs to be used with caution but might be physically safe when done so, maybe the only balanced SSRA/MAOI that actually works and you don't need to diet with it..(I've accidentally combined with venlafaxine w/o ill reactions!)
People are using the shit out of them yet from what I've seen they are similar to the classic illegal drugs and some medicines are worse.

Just some fancy thinking but looking at other big industries like tech giants it wouldn't really surprise me if some genious individuals could come up with equally good or better things than big corps and given how many promising compounds fail in clinical tests or get withdrawn cause of probands liking them (yiek), well..

Maybe a factor is that RC users tend to be more wary about negative effects than people taking meds with the added indirection of them experiencing the side effects but the doctor deciding about continuation and positive effects not being felt immediately for many meds with the belief that you need to go through negative ones like with the antidepressants but still, guess people would have predicted the RC phenomenon to have worse consequences. I know there are many deaths but these would have happened with anything and are directly related to the War on Drugs (reckless combinations etc).

 

[JoEhJoEh]

Once I had to stay in hospital for a few days after a heavy Grand-Mal-Seizure.The "Chef-doc" didn't even know that "ADHD in Adults" exist and was nearly jumping out of the window when I told him Im getting Amphetaminsulfate against it.

This should just be a little comparison how much doctors know about things they really should meanwhile known and be able to treat and you are absolutely right to ask WHAT ABOUT THE RCS? What if something happens to anybody who took a new psychoactive substance? It scares me.....

JJ

Sorry dopamimetic, I just saw what I writing is OT. Or not? Perhaps I can say as a conclusion you don't even need toxic RCs to die in the end..

 

[dopamimetic]

When I admitted myself to hospital after accidentally and recklessly overdosing on what I've thought to be some fent analogue and quickly adding a bit naloxone but felt like shit and feared that the analogue could last for longer than the naloxone - I with this experience to nobody. They thought I was psychotic and inventing stuff when I told them the story, they didn't even know what naloxone is or that sth like RCs exist, denied treatment and put me in psychiatry (universitarian hospital in a big city of Germany) where they first locked me into a room w/o any surveillance or alarm. Well I would have died if my fears had been real. Then they stopped all my meds, put me on a toxic combo of antipsychotics on which I forgot even my name. The people (professionals) were horrible, there were no things to distract, no books etc.. after 9 days they discarged me with heavy brain zaps, anxiety/dysphoria and confusion, didn't give me any medication to take with me despite the cocktail I was put on and the statement "you have psychosis. This will last your entire life. Gratulations, you're fucked." because health insurance wouldn't pay anymore and luckily they denied also to pay ambulance transport to the city where I lived in or maybe that statement would really have become true. Oh, they didn't arrange anyone to pick me up, was denied to make phone calls and other things (nurses: heh, we let you eat so will you now let us play cards?? Doc, maybe up the dosage, this one's an annoyance.) and had just enough money to buy some alcohol..much too less for any transportation home. Fuck that. WoD has been declared as catastrophic failure 5 years ago and the world continues with banning all substances we know something about.

@JoEhJoEh don't worry, is part of the topic because yeah as you said, people confuse death cases with toxicity and it has the strongest social and personal implications for users. I like that dissociatives are essentially under-doses anesthetics and it's almost impossible to die off them but well it isn't exactly hard to get administered to psych ward if somebody accidentally watches you during a high-dose trip or while catatonically sleeping aka dissociative anesthesia.

 

[clubcard]

It has been my experience that 3rd parties have altered my design to increase potency/profitability without knowing the first thing about risk. Diphenidine was OK, isophenidine was good... but thw Muppets doing the chemistry were forming the enamine thermally and thus could not replace the piperidine with an isopropyl. Thet also added a 2-MeO which is ASKING for trouble. Of course, the boss only cared for profit and so until a LOT of deaths, he ignored it. I'm not some paragon of virtue, but this was done behind my back because they KNEW I would say no...

 

[dopamimetic]

Yeah, I forgot the business fact and should have written, how safe could we make RCs under optimal circumstances. Fuck things like what you mentioned with 'MXP' (which indeed was the dirtiest of them, happened to fall for the stupid intended superficial similarity to MXE and wrote the family off as bad but recently had some diphenidine which didnt share the subjective toxicity. A harsh dysphoric syrup like feeling is what I remember for the lack of a better description), the 3-/4-CMCs, 'Serotoni' sample pills, fent analoges as uncut powder and what not.

Chinese labs using the onion and shady vendors as dumping ground for bad batches Was kinda predictable I guess.

They could avoid such things easily, no need to make good things bad to attract people... There is afaik exactly one vendor in EU if not worldwide which cares to publicate some scientific data, warnings and dosages about their compounds, test their stuff and don't sell what they wouldn't take themselves. Is in constant (seized imports etc) trouble even when they don't do anything illegal. But yeah thanks Nixon.

 

[clubcard]

Yeah, I forgot the business fact and should have written, how safe could we make RCs under optimal circumstances. Fuck things like what you mentioned with 'MXP' (which indeed was the dirtiest of them, happened to fall for the stupid intended superficial similarity to MXE and wrote the family off as bad but recently had some diphenidine which didnt share the subjective toxicity. A harsh dysphoric syrup like feeling is what I remember for the lack of a better description), the 3-/4-CMCs, 'Serotoni' sample pills, fent analoges as uncut powder and what not.

Chinese labs using the onion and shady vendors as dumping ground for bad batches Was kinda predictable I guess.

They could avoid such things easily, no need to make good things bad to attract people... There is afaik exactly one vendor in EU if not worldwide which cares to publicate some scientific data, warnings and dosages about their compounds, test their stuff and don't sell what they wouldn't take themselves. Is in constant (seized imports etc) trouble even when they don't do anything illegal. But yeah thanks Nixon.

I actually asked for isophenidine which is much more like MXE and much less toxic. Why didn't they make it? Because they were forming the enamine via thermal dehydration followed by NaBH4 to reduce. They claimed they couldn't make it because isopropyl amine had a BP that was too low. Because thermal is the ONLY route, right? I had nothing to do with the 2-MeO derivative, I never even sampled it. My original compounds were patented and a lot of work had been done on them, not so 2-MeO diphenidine.

It angered me because isophenidineis much better and it is hardly difficult to form an imine from ketone + amine (followed by NaBH4 reduction) but those people only cared about profit. In fact, their medicinal chemist was so useless, I got him fired. The guys arrogance was amazing. 'IT IS SO' because he said 'IT IS SO'. They never even sampled them - not people to trust.

Still, there is a RT route to isophenidinethat they ignored because they had bought 200Kg of piperidine and they insisted on using it.

 

[clubcard]

4,'4 DMAR sucks. a 2:1 mixture of the p-Me & m-Me aminorex is so lose to MDMA people won't know the difference... p,4-DMAR is rubbish IMO (although maybe we got rubbish pills). The p-Me releases serotonin & prevents reuptake, m-Me releases & prevents reuptake of serotonin. The reason why p-Me & m-Me were chosen was simple - the body can oxidize them so duration is 6 hours, not 12 or 18...

 

[Rectify]

5-MeO-AMT is toxic.

 

[dopamimetic]

Happen to love the duration of 4,4'-dmar, it makes a decent antidepressant at 25mg which is actually euphoric, anxiolytic and slightly empathogenic in opposition to the usual speedy numbing. Might be just me though but I find the mechanism of MAOI + S(n)DRA without increased blood pressure or diet problems remarkable, even if it did show tolerance after some time but maybe more so from receptor upregulation than transporter/depleted serotonin. Had no brain zaps at all after two+ weeks which no other SRI/SRA with remote potency is able to give me. Not sure due to scarcity but guess a derivate w/o MAOI activity will be worse when used cautiously for longer time.

Now I think about it might be that I have a narrow focus on the substances I like yet still T/Pikhal and similar are full of before unknown compounds, certain people trying literally hundreds of novel compounds with no lasting ill effects while others get hurt off a single medicine from known side effects docs overlook or pharm corps knew and remained silent about..

 

[clubcard]

5-MeO-AMT is toxic.

I found it awful, many people do, but is that sensitivity or toxicity?

I do not know if the 6-methyl derivatives of insoles are legal elsewhere, but I noted that 6-methyl DMT was as potent as DMT.

 

[hydroazuanacaine]

the fluoroamphetamines feel more safe (disputed I know).

so smooth, but i flushed them because the internet said the were ultra cardiotoxic.

 

[dopamimetic]

I'd suspect cocaine to be much worse to your heart, the former speculations were about neurotoxicity but afaik that were people thinking of fluor = toxic which doesnt need to be when the bond is strong enough.

Just read the report about cardiotoxicity, it's about 45 people after 10 years and some of them will have taken stratospheric dosages, had bad lifestyle etc.. That's a warning but nothing near ultra toxic - all amphetamines are bad when used in excess. Correct me if I am wrong of course but sometimes it's really the need to check your sources. People keep repeating how dissociatives fry your brain from subjective experiences yet almost all the psychosis cases involved weed, LSD etc or sometimes DXM+whatever like DPH ..

 

[hydroazuanacaine]

that's a great link for anyone taking or considering taking 4fa to check out. weird they call it "ecstasy light."

 

[clubcard]

that's a great link for anyone taking or considering taking 4fa to check out. weird they call it "ecstasy light."

'Sola dosis facit venenum'

If you hadn't noticed, almost every single RC has previously been patented, often decades before and means that it will likely have gone through animal studies.Of ALL the classes of RC, the synthetic CB ligands worry me the most. Often they were produced at a huge scale and even a casual glance at the GC-MS showed that dimers & polymers were in the product. Now, while the monomer might well vapourize in the pipe/joint, the much higher MW of dimers and polymers means that they will be polarized. Now one the the things about THC is that it contains no nitrogen atoms. Not so for the synthetic stuff.

If I had to make 1 prediction it would be that in the next 10-20 years we are going to see a spike in lung (and possibly other) cancers that shows (too late to help much) just how dangerous they are.

What I would say is that if anyone ever comes across pynazolam, please try it. It was too costly to make since whereas pyrazolam worked at 0.5mg, pynazolam needed 3mg so the difference is massive. But anyone who has had methaqualone - well this is for you AND it seems very safe in overdose. In animal models, the TI was over 500.

 

[dopamimetic]

Hmm granted, I thought about patents and the implications of them but indeed I only knew for some compounds like the diarylethamines but thought that e.g. MXE was a novel together with other arylcyclohexylamines and possibly mephedrone..

Edit: But still, how many pharmaceuticals successfully completed animal or even phase I/II trials just to be discarded later off unexpected side effects or fatalities? Then again, how statistically relevant are those and how are they being judged? For example pemoline, with a possibly superior profile than amphetamine, was withdrawn from market because of a few accidents. Really more than coincidence and issues with being off patent? Or kava-kava for which it's pretty sure the liver toxicity wasn't from the kava itself but poor manufacturing. Things like antipsychotics have wrecked many many lifes (and saved others, maybe) but nobody tries to pull them out of sale..

 

[JoEhJoEh]

'Sola dosis facit venenum'

If you hadn't noticed, almost every single RC has previously been patented, often decades before and means that it will likely have gone through animal studies.Of ALL the classes of RC, the synthetic CB ligands worry me the most. Often they were produced at a huge scale and even a casual glance at the GC-MS showed that dimers & polymers were in the product. Now, while the monomer might well vapourize in the pipe/joint, the much higher MW of dimers and polymers means that they will be polarized. Now one the the things about THC is that it contains no nitrogen atoms. Not so for the synthetic stuff.

If I had to make 1 prediction it would be that in the next 10-20 years we are going to see a spike in lung (and possibly other) cancers that shows (too late to help much) just how dangerous they are.

What I would say is that if anyone ever comes across pynazolam, please try it. It was too costly to make since whereas pyrazolam worked at 0.5mg, pynazolam needed 3mg so the difference is massive. But anyone who has had methaqualone - well this is for you AND it seems very safe in overdose. In animal models, the TI was over 500.

Hey,

unfortunately it will not be Methaqualone but Nembutal which is also a Barbi - nomnom - I'm looking forward to this!

JJ

 

[dopamimetic]

What drugs come most close to the effetcs of quaaludes / barbiturates? As somebody who never found anything besides anxiety relief and cognitive numbing in GABAergics, even pagoclone was a failure for me (one which didn't stop me from finishing the bag though) and ethanol only worked the very first times for me, then became a dirty BZD relative.. so I am curious about whether these old ones are really so much more recreational. I've liked zopiclone+ethanol, if I managed to resist the urge to sleep it became quite trippy and comfortable yet with horrible retrograde amnesia. Maybe it's just me but what's the point about tripping when you don't remember most to all of the experience? Zolpidem was nice back in time when I didn't yet have permatolerance to many chemicals (3mg lorazepam will still knock me out though, but not reliealy so). But the best of all in this category is the promiscuous pregabalin. If it just hadn't the worst tachyphylaxis of all drugs I know of, trip one time, wait three months or so.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

Hey,

unfortunately it will not be Methaqualone but Nembutal which is also a Barbi - nomnom - I'm looking forward to this!

I've wanted to try that since I first heard about it but the main use for it these days scares me away. Plus last I checked the only vendor that would ship it to me is no longer around.

Not trying to hi-jack this thread but I see people that might know so I'm going to ask: Can anyone here explain why MXE is no longer produced by anyone? Did the materials needed start being watched closely? With the popularity of it I figured there would be chemists all over producing small batches like they do with MDMA.

 

[JoEhJoEh]

You are absolutely right, guys, it IS fucking dangerous. But that's me. I always want/need something which is calming me down because of my ADHD. I want to feel calm, without that motor that is running 24/7, without myself running around all the time...

Why do you think I'm into Benzos so much? Because they are calming me down. It's such a nice feeling when you are your life long not used to it. That it's the false way - I know. But I do it. THC is perfect but after 23 years smoking before going to bed I also have a tolerance like hell.

Then I saw this shop that sells Nembutal. I did not yet order anything, but I'm very much into it....

Sorry, bad day today.

JJ

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

Did you see it sold as power or liquid? I've only seen it sold as liquid with insane mark-up. I figured the mark-up was so high because they'd taking advantage of people that are only going to buy it once. If you do get it I'd be interested in reading a report just make sure you're very careful about it. I see you're fully aware of its main use in humans.