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Tolerence questions

streetsurfer

streetsurfer

Ex-Bluelighter
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Feb 18, 2004
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I was wondering, I have been using nicotine patchs to boost my mood and improve my concentration and I got to thinking.. I Know my tolerence is going to rise and at some point i will need to increase the dose but there must be a cealing on it yeah? If so is it related to the individual? What changes take place neurologically for it to stabelise or do side effects simply outweigh theraputic effects?

I have heard that herion addicts went unlimited access tend to stabilise on 3 g day, is there a rule of thumb for other drugs?

Could MDMA in actual fact be taken every day theraputically? Wouldn't there be a dose at which seritonin production is maximised in relation to tolerence? How could that be less than baseline levels? Wouldn't there have to be some effect?
 
I don't know much about your other questions but for sure I can speak a little on this one:
streetsurfer said:
Could MDMA in actual fact be taken every day theraputically? Wouldn't there be a dose at which seritonin production is maximised in relation to tolerence? How could that be less than baseline levels? Wouldn't there have to be some effect?
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A few things:

Serotonin is said to be a "delicate" system... where it takes days or weeks to reach baseline levels of serotonin in the serotogenic neurons. If I remember correctly, serotonin is a highly rate limited in it's production and does not "upregulate" it's production if at chronically low concentrations.

When you look at SSRI's and SSRE's, both seem to "modulate" the amount of serotonin *in the synapse* between neurons, but neither - as far as I know - produce a net additional amount or increase production of serotonin - they simply let the brain make it's existing supply of serotonin be more effective.

I don't think there are any studies to show if serotonin levels would "bounce back" from daily use of a drug such as MDMA. I doubt it.
There are many studies that try and show an association between lowered overall levels of serotonin (and it's receptors) and a general negative trend in mood and mental stability.
Most of the studies that try to prove MDMA as "harmful" try to look for reduced numbers of serotonin receptors or amounts of serotonin in various areas of the brain.

It should also be noted that we know very little about what exactly the function of the serotgenic neuron system in the brain does. We know that some serotonin producing neurons connect with up up to 500,000 other neurons... yeah. huge number.

I also read that there is a neat aspect of the serotogenic neurons that they, during consciousness, fire in regular bursts of about 3 times a second. Imagine all those neurons, firing 3 times a second, with the signal being received by millions of other neurons.... I say all this to warn that when you consider how vital it is for your serotonin levels (and neurons) to function adequately....... you end up playing with MANY unknowns.

I think the idea that you, after a number of weeks or months, of "less than recreational dosage", will arrive at some "baseline" that you feel is "happier" or "better" in any way to be the most unlikely outcome of your experiment.

You may want to check out what MAPS is doing with their theuraputic research: MAPS - MDMA research
 
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Theoretically, tolerance isn't limited, as you internalize more and more receptors, you're going to need higher and higher concentrations to get the same name of activated receptors.

Amphetamines are different, because not only can you downregulate the post-synaptic receptors, but you can rapidly displace neurotransmitter from the presynaptic terminal, and be left with nothing for the amphetamine to release.
 
streetsurfer said:
I have heard that herion addicts went unlimited access tend to stabilise on 3 g day, is there a rule of thumb for other drugs?
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On the contrary, I've heard that there is practially no ceiling of tolerance for heroin/morphine.
 
^ Well, actually, there have been many reports out that the vast majority of heroin uses do stabilize at a certain dose per day. - that is - those that are able to stabilize. ;)

If you like, I can try and dig up a couple articles about it.
 
From what I see around me, every addict that is addicted to a kind of drug (opiates or benzos mostly, but also stims, nicotine, alcohol...) always stabilize at a dose that is individual, but everyone stabilizes his dose of drugs...
(after years of use; that means experiments with higher dose than the stabilizing dose, periods of withdrawals, period of very low abuse, etc...)

And I think that every drug addict should try to find his own stabilizing dose (being with benzos, opiates, booze, whatever the person is addicted to...), because once you find it; you can feel the beneficial effects of the drugs for years without increase of tolerance; you feel good everyday, no more mood changes, etc...
 
lifeisforliving said:
^ Well, actually, there have been many reports out that the vast majority of heroin uses do stabilize at a certain dose per day. - that is - those that are able to stabilize. ;)
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Ok I see, but, when they stabilize at 3g/day do their doses provide any euphoria at all or is it just to avoid withdrawal? Couldn't they just keep upping their doses while still being able to handle such doses?

Do pain patients, for example, who are dependant on the drug's pain relieving properties, also stabilize at some specific dosage or do they just keep getting larger and larger doses?
 
redeemer said:
Ok I see, but, when they stabilize at 3g/day do their doses provide any euphoria at all or is it just to avoid withdrawal? Couldn't they just keep upping their doses while still being able to handle such doses?
Click to expand...

The studies I've read relate to advocating harm reduction and the use of heroin "maintenance" as opposed to regular methadone maintenance. They did not speak of whether there was still any subjective feelings of euphoria etc.

Do pain patients, for example, who are dependant on the drug's pain relieving properties, also stabilize at some specific dosage or do they just keep getting larger and larger doses?
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I'm no expert, but my understanding is that with opiods the patient may still not be able to get enough pain relief - but that the opiod still affects breathing and other autonomic functions - so therefore there is a ceiling to what dosage of opiods that pain sufferers can take before the risks outweight the benefits.
 
Pain patients just keep incresing their dosages. There is a record of one woman who required 30 OC 80s daily, prescribed, just to function. Search the net and you can find her story -- she wound up on a morphine drip. Not fun, if you ask me.

My fiance takes 120-160 mg oxy daily for a broken back from car wreck. She has been on for two years and gets no high at all. She is among the lower dose range for people who have been on long term opioid therapy. For her, it is a godsend, and she cannot function without it. She seems to have stabilized at that dose, but her doctor has told her that her tolerance will eventually go up. He recognizes that there is no reason for a person to live in pain if they don't have to, and I wholeheartedly agree.
 
I was just thinking, I can stop opioid addicted Doctors a mile away. They are always twitching and restless and edgey.....but perhaps thats cos they KNOW I know...lol
 
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