To sub or not to sub, help me pick a way forward

[Kismet555]

Earlier in the month I tried to kick from a 130mg (90 OxyContin plus 40 oxycodone) plus street roxies habit, and I did well, but not completely.

i got down to just 30 mg a day of snorting street roxies, and told my pain mgmt dr, who was mad I broke the pain mgmt contract -wtf!- so now I have a script for 40 oxycodone a day, but I have to wait 5 days for my refill so I?m still doing street roxies.

heres the deal tho, I was addicted to H and methadone 20 plus years ago, before I got RA and fibro3 years ago, and actually began the chronic pain,so with all these pain meds in the past few months my addiction has reared it?s ugly head andim just snorting because I like snorting now. I know I need to get off all pain meds completely and just get back to meetings and be sober like I was for 18 years before I got sick. So here rather 2 options.

Option A: should I try to kick again with gaba and loperamide, etc like before, then go to a new pain clinic that focuses on help without narcotics?

Option B: or do I got to the same pain clinic that assists in detoxing with suboxone, which I?m deathly afraid of because I?ve had to kick of methadone before and I don?t want to have to take subs long term? How long is safe to take subs just as a step down, before one gets permanently hooked? If I know how long is safe to take short term maybe I can make an appt and see what their plan is for me and tell them I don?t want to use subs long term. And then I decide.

Either way, Option A or Option B people? Better to kick with subs or without, in my case? Thanks in advance!

 

[Alldonewithit]

Sub for 4-5 days. Google "my very short detox using suboxone" by rb3b. His plan works. He details everything. Its an uplifting thread that many have used to kick.

 

[Stargazer]

Hi Kissmet!

Tough decision. I know. I'm leaning toward subs.

toothpastedog-one of our Sober Living Mods is awesome w detox schedules. And great suggestions too. Let us know what you decide.

 

[jdfisse]

Kismet555 being clean for 18 years you know it is possible. I manage my pain issues through mindfulness and staying in service to others. The same principles that work wonders for staying clean work for accepting and dealing with chronic pain issues.

The kick from sub is not as intense as the kick from d0ne in my experience, but it can last just as long, if not longer. I never felt great at day 3, always felt like I had the real flu and not dope flu. It sucked but I could manage. The problem always came around day 11 when I would become acutely aware that I felt "exactly" the same as I felt on day 3. Maybe I felt better, but perception is reality and my perception was that I felt exactly the same. Then the fear kicks in. "Will I fear this way forever?"

If you choose buprenorphine as your path the lowest possible dose for the shortest amount of time has worked the best for me. On day 6 last time I was able to cover the vast majority of symptoms from a daily 1500 mg + oxy habit with 2mg of bupe. Some doctor was trying to get me on 16mg twice a day. LOL. I am a meeting a day guy today. Sponsorship, steps, service...kicks the sh*t out of donuts and Marlboro reds in the parking lot of a clinic bright and early every morning...I get to LIVE today instead of just attempting to avoid dying. The #1 harm reduction method that gets so often overlooked these days is abstinence. Funny how the least harmful of the harm reduction methods basically gets ignored...

 

[LopLover]

Kismet555 being clean for 18 years you know it is possible. I manage my pain issues through mindfulness and staying in service to others. The same principles that work wonders for staying clean work for accepting and dealing with chronic pain issues.

The kick from sub is not as intense as the kick from d0ne in my experience, but it can last just as long, if not longer. I never felt great at day 3, always felt like I had the real flu and not dope flu. It sucked but I could manage. The problem always came around day 11 when I would become acutely aware that I felt "exactly" the same as I felt on day 3. Maybe I felt better, but perception is reality and my perception was that I felt exactly the same. Then the fear kicks in. "Will I feel this way forever?"

jdfisse, you just put into words very articulately what is the true problem with Suboxone as a long-term taper and/or maintenance drug. I started on 20 mg, then tapered down to about 16, then 8, then 3, then 2. This is over a course of 10 years. I didn't even begin to have w/d symptoms until I started dropping below 2 mg daily. But I stuck with it until I got down to about 1 mg every other day, and that's when I hit the wall. Eventually I tried to jump off and when those w/d kicked in, they would not go away.

I went a couple of weeks before I even tried anything else, then broke down and bought some kratom. I got some relief, but it definitely didn't take away all my symptoms, and the ones that stuck around really stuck around. Long story short, I begged my doctor to take me back on a low dose, so now I'm on 1 mg weekly broken up into 3 or 4 days. And because I always run out too soon, I keep some kratom around to help when that happens. The biggest thing on the days I don't have the Sub is the absolute lack of energy and focus, which kratom doesn't help.

I used to speak really highly of Sub as a detox or maintenance medication, but today I'm pretty hesitant to advise people to go on it long-term if they aren't willing to consider it a possible lifetime thing. Using it to detox, for a very short time, makes sense, but staying on it for any length of time can be a real problem. I like your affirmation that chronic pain can be dealt with using mindfulness and helping others; so far it hasn't been enough for me, but I haven't given up any options going forwards. And despite the fact that I've been mostly an IV speedballer for my entire adult life, except for some years on methadone and a few more forcibly abstinent in jail and prison sentences, I have had some years of sobriety where I wasn't on any maintenance medication, so there's a possibility. The primary reason I've stayed on bupe this long is that my health otherwise is very fragile, with end-stage liver disease and severe emphysema (oxygen-dependent around the clock) on top of the chronic pain, and I've sort of been expected to die at any time. Which made the idea of having withdrawals take away the quality of life, such as it is, from my last few days/weeks/months, not be something I wanted to risk. I keep staying alive, and pretty stable, though, so it might be time to look at it differently. ~namaste~

 

[warforge]

As someone who has been through it. The only reason i see to use subs is for dextox. You should be able to get on subs and be off in 2-4 weeks done right (doctors and clinics love to keep you taking like 8mg+ twice a day or something crazy. I've done grams of heroin IV for many many years and taken 1mg of subs in heavy WD and it subsided). Yes you will have PAWS to different degrees depending on addiction but long term subs are a bad idea unless you believe you just cannot stop yourself from using opiates and might die of OD.


Subs are very hard to get off of if used longer and require a very long wean to get off painlessly. I had it at one point where i would put a tiny lil dot of sub under my tongue. Like a grain of rice and it took W/D away at the end of a wean. Best route is to get clean and not use substances and find new ways to learn how to coupe.

Once you get clean for a few months without having opiates/subs you'll feel great and be so glad you aren't having the bondage life of having to take an opiate just to feel normal living. That is no way to live. Conquer it!

I've used substances since a teen. I used opiates for nearly 10 years. Almost 4 years clean. I look back at my old life like.. WOW i am blessed to have gotten out of that world. If I can do it. You surely can do it.


Subs are a gift to get off opiates quickly (not 100% painlessly but quickly)

Subs are HARD AS CRAP TO GET OFF OF long term and you're still pumping big pharma chemicals in you daily just to feel normal.

 

[jdfisse]

Thank you for sharing your wisdom LopLover. I am glad you are still around to share your valuable experience.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Earlier in the month I tried to kick from a 130mg (90 OxyContin plus 40 oxycodone) plus street roxies habit, and I did well, but not completely.

i got down to just 30 mg a day of snorting street roxies, and told my pain mgmt dr, who was mad I broke the pain mgmt contract -wtf!- so now I have a script for 40 oxycodone a day, but I have to wait 5 days for my refill so I?m still doing street roxies.

heres the deal tho, I was addicted to H and methadone 20 plus years ago, before I got RA and fibro3 years ago, and actually began the chronic pain,so with all these pain meds in the past few months my addiction has reared it?s ugly head andim just snorting because I like snorting now. I know I need to get off all pain meds completely and just get back to meetings and be sober like I was for 18 years before I got sick. So here rather 2 options.

Option A: should I try to kick again with gaba and loperamide, etc like before, then go to a new pain clinic that focuses on help without narcotics?

Option B: or do I got to the same pain clinic that assists in detoxing with suboxone, which I?m deathly afraid of because I?ve had to kick of methadone before and I don?t want to have to take subs long term? How long is safe to take subs just as a step down, before one gets permanently hooked? If I know how long is safe to take short term maybe I can make an appt and see what their plan is for me and tell them I don?t want to use subs long term. And then I decide.

Either way, Option A or Option B people? Better to kick with subs or without, in my case? Thanks in advance!

Have you come to any decisions about this OP?

Whatever you do, the more you invest in your health, wellbeing and recovery the better off you'll be in every sense of the world (mainly the more manageable things will become).

One of the most crucial elements of recovery is exploring your options and learning how to approach goal setting. If you want support with that or want my feedback on the buprenorphine issue, feel free to ask.