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Dissociatives To K, or not to K

@Mjäll Ah yes I never quite understood why exactly you think it's an embarrassing spectacle. You seemed to have quibbles with the scientific method itself iirc, which was a bit too deep a rabbit hole to dive into last time.

But you're right that they're a dirty tool. Takes a lot of effort to clean 'em up.
 
@Chris Timothy That's a very interesting topic, not sure if it fits in this thread. Care to point me toward that "last time"? While i do recognize this theme, i can't recall the specific instance of discussion. Maybe that thread was a better fit.
 
@Mjäll No clue, mate. You can DM me a synopsis of your take on it though if you fancy having your viewpoints challenged.

Because I don't understand how someone can fundamentally oppose the scientific method itself, especially when communicated through a medium which wouldn't exist in the first place if your opinion on science would have validity to it at all? I have a bit of a background of knowing shit science from shinola science, so it's quite baffling for me to see you throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
 
@Chris Timothy I do believe your assessment could stem from a miscommunication, because i don't really identify with dismissing the entire scientific method. I'm mostly critical of psychiatry and medicine.
 
It has offered me afterglow always, and some very limited changes in perception.

Once a week it might possibly work just fine. I wouldn't expect to be completely cured of the stuff or trying to reach that scenario.

It has addictive qualities tho' so there is no definitive answer. I guess OP just needs to make their own assessment about it.
 
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i think brushing dissociatives off as purely escapist is a bit of an overreaction to the admittedly embarrassing spectacle that is sudden introduction of psychoactive drugs in a top-down psychiatric paradigm.

Dissociatives can offer a broadening of perspectives by virtue of the sheer intensity of psychoactive effects
Fair point, let me just clarify my own hyperbole, lest I be perceived as having lost all objectivity here. I don't think dissociatives are purely escapist - I think they are escapist (and therapeutic) in much the same way that benzodiazepines are (with some caveats, which I'll try to address). First caveat - physical dangers, let's just disregard that (dissociatives are obviously more dangerous, on the whole, I'd venture to say even outside the fairly overrepresented and known-to-be-physically-toxic arylcyclohexylamines) since it's not really relevant to the escapist/something-more-than-escapist dichotomy.

Second caveat - addictivity/reinforcement - huh, this is a tricky one, I'm tempted to say benzos might actually win out here since it mostly does take a lot longer for dissociative addiction to develop... although this is also not really relevant to the escapism thing, apologies, I better stop or I'll just get lost in my own caveats... although an important difference here is that (for the most part) people who are addicted to benzodiazepines understand what is happening even if (as is almost unavoidable, fallible humans as we are) there is a little bit of bias and temptation to judge one's own use and capacity for self-control as just a little bit less dysfunctional and just a little bit greater (respectively) than either of those things actually are. Ketamine on the other hand (for example) stretches that delusion of sanity so far over the dials of self-awareness-and-substance-use that even when the frequency of use is significantly less than (for example) the average benzo or, indeed, opiate habit, it appears to me that the bias towards judging either one's habit, or even the utility of a single, isolated experience becomes so disproportionately skewed so early that it's really quite difficult to judge how much of one's intrigue, fond memories, general web of thoughts and feelings, conscious and unconscious, but generally leaning towards one day doing some more ketamine comes from something actually positive about the substance, something valuable that an experience has imparted, or left you with, and so forth... versus just a blunt, garden-variety but thoroughly obscured rewiring of part of our brain's reward circuitry that really has nothing to do with anything positive.

There are probably a few more caveats I could mention but that brings me pretty neatly to the main point I wanted to make. Benzodiazepines could be said to be escapist substances (without for a moment, disregarding their therapeutic value). This seems almost intrinsic to GABA-agonists, almost by definition, given that GABA is the brain's primary inhibitory neurotransmitter and "GABAergics" for the most part loosen that inhibition, apologies, I've realised that by trying to lean too far into neurochemistry-lingo I'm risking getting far too specific with the point I'm trying to make and weakening it... maybe I should have started with "I think that ketamine is escapist (and therapeutic) in much the same way as alcohol is" rather than trying to generalise across entire classes... Anyway in the interest of authenticity I'll continue and hope the general point I'm making remains clear enough.

With benzodiazepines though, again, it is mostly understood that they can mute unpleasant dimensions of being alive (anxiety, fear, etc). Some people do need these muted, of course, hence their therapeutic value, having had their own inner dials of these unpleasant edges of conscious experience turned up way too high by some cruel and complicated twist of fate. For those who don't develop a problematic habit, this simple muting or temporary escape from these cognitive dysfunctions can be enough to work towards lasting change - but with benzodiazepines, it's fairly transparent what's happening. There is not the temptation to overcomplicate it by imagining something intangible that is more than this and warrants returning to the substance again and again - even in the face of very unclear actual benefits given that dissociatives on the whole are far less functional than any given benzodiazepine.

A few times in this thread I've thought about a certain OG Bluelighter who did 3-MeO-PCP every day for, I think, over a year, for, seemingly, pretty sustainable mood-and-life-enhancing effects, as an obvious counterpoint to the idea that dissociatives are "just" escapist, or just anything - although this kind of usage seems to be not the norm, unless there is some massive negative-reporting-bias that, of course, is vaguely possible given that none of this stuff has really been properly studied. Most people (it would appear, to me) who are tempted to use 3-MeO-PCP everyday (for example) rapidly escalate doses and experience increasingly profound and obviously dysfunctional (to any external observer) personality changes as a result.

Urgh god I've typed so much words, am I ever gonna make my point, OK here goes, while some of what I said might indeed be somewhat hyperbolic I am really specifically attacking the idea that the dissociative state has much inherent usefulness beyond just intoxication, because "broadening of perspectives" can happen on almost any mind-altering drug, and in a vacuum, can be profound and life-changing. But intoxication such as that offered by classic sedatives, GABAergics, opiates, alcohol, and whatnot, while most people with any experience of these substances can remember a time they felt like they just saw everything in a new light and had some experience they would not have had otherwise within those states, they are, for the most part, easily recognized for what they are. On the other hand there is a (IMO) dangerous tendency to romanticize the dissociative state as being something more than it actually is. I mean, maybe there is a kind of dark beauty in them, for sure, I can see it... maybe Hole Space is just psychedelia viewed through a different cognitive window, but even if this is the case, IMO/E - the window is so distorted that almost anything that one might come back with from that place is tainted in a way that is just uniquely poisonous to the human mind. And, the other perspective, of course, is that Hole Space is just another windowless cavern of intoxication in the labyrinths of conscious experience but with some added effect that induces the cognitive hallucination of psychedelic magic where none actually exists, in the same way people see imaginary oases in barren deserts, and chase down that illusion until their deaths.
 
Can you rephrase that with smaller sentences and punctuation for us?

Edit: never mind, gtp4 did it for you, maybe? Tell me whether this represents your viewpoint:

Fair point. Let me clarify my hyperbole to maintain my objectivity. I don’t believe dissociatives are solely for escape; they offer escapism and therapy similarly to benzodiazepines, albeit with certain caveats, which I’ll explain.

The first caveat concerns physical dangers. We could overlook these, since dissociatives are generally more dangerous, especially the well-known arylcyclohexylamines. However, this danger does not pertain to the escapist versus therapeutic discussion.

The second caveat is about addictiveness. Benzos might take the lead here, as addiction to dissociatives usually develops more slowly. Nonetheless, this does not directly relate to escapism, so I'll halt this tangent. It's important to note that benzodiazepine users typically recognize their addiction, even with some bias. Users underestimate their dependency and overestimate their self-control. Ketamine, for instance, warps this self-awareness even when used less frequently than benzos or opiates. Even so, it's challenging to discern if the draw to ketamine is due to valuable experiences or mere rewiring of the brain's reward system.

Although there are more caveats, I now move to my main argument. Benzodiazepines are understandable in their escapist attribute and therapeutic value, acting on the brain's primary inhibitory neurotransmitter, GABA. Perhaps likening ketamine's escapism to alcohol’s, rather than generalizing across substance classes, would make my point clearer.

With benzodiazepines, it's clear they dull the harsh realities of life, such as anxiety. This muting provides therapeutic benefits for those with heightened inner turmoil. Without developing harmful habits, the temporary respite can facilitate long-term improvement. Dissociatives, in contrast, are less transparent and may tempt users with false perceptions of benefits.

In this discussion, I recalled a Bluelight user who seemingly benefited from daily use of 3-MeO-PCP. This is not typical, suggesting a possible underreporting. Typically, daily users of such substances increase their doses quickly and undergo noticeable personality changes.

I've written a lot but here's my point. While I've been hyperbolic, I challenge the notion that dissociatives offer more than mere intoxication. Mind-expanding effects aren't unique to dissociatives and can occur with most psychoactive drugs. However, classic sedatives such as GABAergics are recognized for what they are by users who recall profound experiences. Yet, there's a concerning trend of romanticizing dissociatives beyond their real value. Though they might hold a dark allure, what's retrieved from that altered state is often tainted, potentially harming the mind. Alternatively, dissociatives might just create an illusion of insight, like mirages that lead to ruin.
 
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Ok, this tread is about "drug is bad", beg to differ.
Went from nitrous to ether to ket to PCP, would do it again, sorry to say that.
Ok it's good so it's addictive, that's the point of good things, but it's not only good, it was for me a fantastic psychanalytic tool.
It helped me to grow as an adult when I had no clue to how to do that by myself.

Today am clean ( yes ), got some k cramp sometime when I was abusing, nothing more.
For me it worth it, perhaps am lucky, but if drugs is your thing, you know it, and dissos are very decent one.
And it is as active as a psychedelic as it is a an ego booster, not a speedy meth-coke stuff,
a real stuff that allow you to think there is something valuable in you, even if it's delusion,
it help to dare to do things, and doing things is all that life is about,
after you can see if you made good or bad things, but you've dream and do things, that's a lot.
And that ego booster is fantastic as a social booster, ok they all see you are mad, but is it that important ?
Be ready to loose your family and old friends, dont drive or do it at work.
 
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Can you rephrase that with smaller sentences and punctuation for us?

Edit: never mind, gtp4 did it for you, maybe? Tell me whether this represents your viewpoint:
That is pretty accurate yes but I am amused by the fact that it's still pretty verbose. I could probably summarise it further - in a sentence actually - "dissociatives are far more harmful than they are therapeutic and the vast majority of any apparent subjective benefit is a cognitive hallucination" - but that summary unavoidably loses a lot of nuance and is just a rehash of a lot of general sentiment already expressed.

Admittedly I could have been more concise, a lot of that was amphetamine fuelled, which is another substance class I believe myself to have been a little deluded about the benefits of but my god, the fucking anhedonia and apathy without them...
 
Against which I reply: you are, like you always are, psychologically projecting, good sir.

I take my dissociatives when I want something to be repaired, or perfected.

It's not about the substance. It's not even about the particular interaction with the substance and the individual. It's about the interaction between substance, individual, and intent. And setup...
 
Sure, I am projecting to an extent, although I would of course say that moreso than projecting, I am observing patterns of thought and behaviour in others that I can identify with by virtue of also being human. Perhaps that is projection, although it seems necessary to start from that approach if anyone is to say anything generalisable about any substance, as far as subjective experience...

In myself, admittedly, I have come to believe those patterns were and are mostly delusions. Granted - I don't KNOW that they are always delusions, or mostly delusions (since I'm sure they're not ALWAYS anything) in other people. But, again, I just haven't seen anything particularly convincing that they are actually very helpful even to the people who claim that they are - for example:

I take my dissociatives when I want something to be repaired, or perfected.
Could you specify something that you wanted to be repaired or perfected, the dissociative you took, the nature of that experience, and the result?

I imagine that you probably will be able to point something out if you choose to, and I'll note that I'm not saying that your own perception of benefit is inaccurate. I cannot know that, of course. I'm just speaking of a general trend that I do see a lot of similarly vague claims without really any specifics about dissociative-mediated-benefits to the lives of the individual making those claims.

This isn't a phenomenon entirely unique to dissociatives, it happens with psychedelics too, and even non-substance oriented practices in the form of "spiritual bypassing", and in all of those cases they are avoidance tactics of a sort but dissociatives seem to be clearly the most dangerous option.

Equally whereas fairly lucid attempts to argue the benefits of psychedelics, various spiritual practices and whatnot have been made, written down, discussed, practiced and refined, I just don't really see anything like this about dissociatives or originating from dissociative users. This doesn't mean it will never happen, or can't happen, of course, and arguably perhaps the negative skew of my perception of the vagueness is a projection of my own negative experiences, in fact I'm sure it is to an extent, but if my perception of the dark side of dissociatives is itself more of a delusion than the one I'm pointing out (which I don't think we disagree exists, just on the magnitude and relevance of it, I guess) then I'm not sure how to see past that.
 
Very fair reply.

I can indeed point to a lot of things I have said to present you results. But the fact is I don't really know anyone using dissociatives the way I do.. with the exception of Alan Watts, if we take the liberty of counting alcohol as a somewhat dissociative.

That's the whole reason I'm not dead yet: I encountered Alan Watts and MXE at the same time. I try to extend that alchemical safety net over the entire dissociative reality tunnel network. But it's extremely difficult, and when I make mistakes, people can get themselves killed.

Because meanwhile I'm running on relatively tight financial resources, and can't just keep giving everything away for free. It's a really hard space to navigate. Perhaps I should set up a way for people to financially support me for dissociative guidance.. if that doesn't sound preposterous from the getgo! Because it kinda does, doesn't it?! I guess it depends on the demand for such service, on the support that could be mustered for it. Which I suppose I should find a way for to measure?
 
Maybe I'm not giving others enough credit here. There are plenty of bluelighters defending dissociatives from whom I have learned stuff.

I guess your @Vastness obscured my vision there for a sec.. ;)


Edit: I think your problem is that you use dissociatives as stimulants.
 
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I certainly have tried to use dissociatives like stimulants... Actually I've tried to use most drugs like stimulants, come to think of it. I'm fairly certain I've tried to use them as dissociatives too though. I've also tried to use stimulants to dissociate, in some ways. Eh, I can't think any harder about that idea right now because I haven't taken any stimulants today, but certainly I seem to have exhausted the current usefulness of actual stimulants to me also since the most productive thing I do is send long rambly texts to people (or in threads like these). :LOL:

Perhaps I should set up a way for people to financially support me for dissociative guidance.. if that doesn't sound preposterous from the getgo! Because it kinda does, doesn't it?! I guess it depends on the demand for such service, on the support that could be mustered for it. Which I suppose I should find a way for to measure?
Might I suggest some kind of blogging platform, like Substack or Medium? You're right, I expect the demand is not too high. But it's also a pretty low barrier to entry, and at least you'd get some information out there. Maybe a YouTube channel depending how creative you're feeling...

The next option I could think of would be to get some medical and scientific qualifications, publish some uncontroversial science to get a foothold in the industry, maybe cautiously try to set up a disruptor pharmaceutical company and stay under the radar of the established giants while secretly building up the right connections and influence to eventually force your way into the mental health, pharmaceutical, and ketamine space with, hopefully, some far more ethical ideas but, my god, what an immense amount of hassle that second option is. Actually that might not even be a project that's possible within a single lifetime... also, obviously, sky high barrier to entry which would cost a lot of money in the first place and a good amount of sheer luck so, yeah, I imagine this one is a no go although I like the fantasy that anyone can just decide to embark on some extreme, potentially world-changing project like that and be successful.
 
Just linking to a thread which should be read by any and all with ketamine questions / curiosity

 
You don’t fiend for it but the drug seems so benign and perfect that there is no negative to doing it.

Actually, this is the only drug that I found myself wanting to do whilst at work during those years past when I would do it somewhat regularly. Not even meth had that sort of nagging voice in the back of my head. It was also the only drug that I ever found myself doing in very inappropriate circumstances and the only drug I ever did where I would just dose publicly without a care to keep the high going.

Couldn't explain it but I dare say it's a bit more nefarious than may seem.

Tread lightly is right.
 
Actually, this is the only drug that I found myself wanting to do whilst at work during those years past when I would do it somewhat regularly. Not even meth had that sort of nagging voice in the back of my head. It was also the only drug that I ever found myself doing in very inappropriate circumstances and the only drug I ever did where I would just dose publicly without a care to keep the high going.
This is exactly what happened to me, in fact I enjoyed it anyway. Ketamine is one of my favorite drugs, it's a good thing I don't have easy access to it, because the times I have had a few grams I have consumed them alone and I have taken K for several days. Good times, but it's not something that everyone might like, my mother didn't think it was a big deal, my cousin loves it, a friend hated it her first time and another friend told me "this is better than everything else." "
We are all different I guess.
 
Actually, this is the only drug that I found myself wanting to do whilst at work during those years past when I would do it somewhat regularly. Not even meth had that sort of nagging voice in the back of my head. It was also the only drug that I ever found myself doing in very inappropriate circumstances and the only drug I ever did where I would just dose publicly without a care to keep the high going.

Couldn't explain it but I dare say it's a bit more nefarious than may seem.

Tread lightly is right.
I agree except with mxe.

I did threshold doses of it for everything involved in living life. Made me feel like super man.

Ketamine left me kind of nauseous and didn’t last as long as mxe and was more stoning and and could function as well on it as I could on a small mxe dose
 
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