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Opinion To Be or Not To Be (An Abortion Thread)

birdup.snaildown said:
So nobody is going to reply about the giant human egg scenario?
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I'm happy to reply. Here's my reply: drop the egg scenario! 🤣 No pun intended either!

Sorry but it's a bit of a stretch, even for me, to equate a human pregnancy with an embryo in an egg.

Mind you and in just looking at the above: this could do a few heads in! Ostriches lay eggs. So where's the line between breakfast and euthanasia? 🤣 And don't anybody play the sentient card here either. Trust me: I've seen more intelligent Ostriches than a lot of so-called sentient beings! 🤣

Alright they're not mammals. Thought I'd better throw this in to save some a little bit of bother (and to demonstrate that I'm not really that stupid).
 
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JessFR said:
Morals are unavoidable. Believing that there's no moral issue is itself because you're moral beliefs are that you don't find it objectionable.

It's like suggesting that banning people from murdering people is a purely objective decision, it's not, it's because we attach moral value to human life and believe that life must be protected.
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It’s not that I don’t find it objectionable, for myself I would never have one and I’ve been in the position twice to make that choice. However, I would never tell someone else what they should do with their body. It should be an option.
 
birdup.snaildown said:
So nobody is going to reply about the giant human egg scenario?

Surely, it doesn't change whether or not it is a developing human life or whether or not it is destined to suffer. So (in a world with giant human eggs need to incubate for 9 months) would the people arguing for abortion also argue for terminating eggs?



Why pretend they are the same thing?
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They’re not because we view embryos as babies rather than very basic cells that haven’t become a viable person yet. On their face they are both medical procedures how can you say they aren’t?
 
Blueberry_87 said:
Throwing morals into the mix is what gets everyone worked up.
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It upsets one side. The other side gets upset when the complete opposite happens and morals are ignored. It's either human life (in which case killing is complicated) or it is a cluster of cells "yet to become a viable life" (in which case, terminating it is comparable to a colonoscopy).
 
birdup.snaildown said:
It upsets one side. The other side gets upset when the complete opposite happens and morals are ignored. It's either human life (in which case killing is complicated) or it is a cluster of cells "yet to become a viable life" (in which case, terminating it is comparable to a colonoscopy).
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It upsets one side because they are equating an abortion with literally murdering a baby. That same side wants to stop anyone from even having the option to choose an abortion which is what i have an issue with, mainly. Are they going to care for all the babies that would then be born because terminating pregnancy wasn’t an option? Responding with ”they should have been more responsible“ isn’t fair either in some case, like rape. It’s too damn complicated, honestly. I get it, i get why people are pro-life and i agree on a personal level. Forcing someone else to choose like i would isn’t fair, legal or right though.
 
birdup.snaildown said:
It upsets one side. The other side gets upset when the complete opposite happens and morals are ignored. It's either human life (in which case killing is complicated) or it is a cluster of cells "yet to become a viable life" (in which case, terminating it is comparable to a colonoscopy).
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We already have that distinction somewhat. After a certain amount of months when an embryo becomes a fetus and can survive outside the womb, that’s “viable life”. That’s when abortion becomes much more complicated because some places allow “late term abortion” and others don’t because of the viable life factor. When you’re 6 weeks into a pregnancy the embryo is not yet a fetus or an actual baby. Much easier to see it as a medical procedure, which it is. Beyond that however you emotionally feel about it is a personal issue.
 
birdup.snaildown said:
No. I don't think so. Trees are alive. Life is all around us, all the time. It is in the air we breathe and the food we eat. Inside our bodies, there are many living organisms.

Intelligent life requires sentience, but life doesn't.

It's problematic defining when sentience begins, or when exactly a developing human is intelligent enough to be self aware. It doesn't make sense (to me) to assume sentience correlates exactly with the nine month mark, because there are lots of early and late births.

It doesn't seem justified to be able to kill a life during a certain part of it's development because it has not progressed past certain stage. We will never know precisely what point is okay and what point isn't. It's impossible. After birth is where we draw the line. Abortions are performed all over the place. Sometimes they are performed right up to birth. It is more difficult to qualify for late term abortions for a reason. Most countries allow on-demand abortions up till around the end of the first trimester.
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It‘s hard knowing when exactly humans become self aware partly because we have little to no memories before a certain age.
 
Blueberry_87 said:
It‘s hard knowing when exactly humans become self aware partly because we have little to no memories before a certain age.
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In truth, if say a really good argument argument could be made, if you're gonna go with a self awareness criteria, for setting the cutoff well after birth.

Probably as much as over a year old even.
And since I don't see anyone here arguing that killing babies, actual born ones that is is OK, this again seems arbitrary.
 
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TripSitterNZ said:
women who go through abortions are left with heavy mental scars the rest of their life. Its not something that should be done on a whim only for extreme cases. The fact the promotion of murdering innocent life because these fuckwits could not wear a condom or use contraception in alot of cases the blood is on there hands and their mind not mine. Abortion should be heavily restricted to at least seeing 3 different medical professionals who all agree it should be performed for said serious reasons and the people who pop out endless kids here for the benefit should be sterilized i.e anybody on social welfare should be sterilized after two kids maybe even one.
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If a fetus constitutes "life", man, you're not even setting the bar low.
You just put that shit flat on the ground.

As someone with a dick though, if I knock a lady up I don't really have a say. Neither does anyone with a stick.
 
alive, maybe. sentient? assuredly not till around 20 weeks and after.

in my dick- having opinion, before 20 weeks it should be allowed for any reason.

after that, maybe it is up to the doctor and the patient. we should not allow the health and well being, and especially the life of the mother be in jeopardy. pregnancy is serious business, it's often dangerous and it physically changes the mother.
 
birdup said:
@nepalnt21

Why 20 weeks rather than 18 or 22?
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i dunno, i'm not a professional but from what i understand 22 weeks is when the structures are im place to allow cognition. 20 weeks seems to give it enough time to make sure for the fetuses that perhaps rarely develop quicker? i only say it as a placeholder, i'm not totally set on this debate.

i just know that if the mother of my kids died because some doctor hesitated out of fear for legal ramifications, i'd potentially be in fear of legal ramifications myself.
 
www.thebump.com

This 16-Month Old Has Beaten the Odds and Set a New World Record

Read about a new record set by Curtis Zy-Keith Means, now 16 months old, who is the world’s most premature baby to beat the odds and survive.
www.thebump.com www.thebump.com

Obviously this child needed a lot of help to survive outside the womb, but my point is: I don't think you can clearly say what is human and what isn't.

Philip K. Dick (the guy who wrote the novel that became Blade Runner) has a great abortion short story. It's called: The Pre-Persons.
 
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