Opinion To Be or Not To Be (An Abortion Thread)

[birdup.snaildown]

Yeah, I don't know about Christians not caring about people once their born. I don't think that's fair. Religious types adopt the most children, foster the most children and give the most to charity.

@Cream Gravy?

I get your parents response. A big part of having kids (which is a huge sacrifice) is this biological need to continue the genetic line right? So, when you have multiple kids and none of them have biological kids of their own... it's understandably upsetting. One of the main reasons I want three (or more) kids is because you have to double-down these days. The odds are not all of your kids will have kids.

I'd honestly be super upset too if my kids said they specifically want our family to stop reproducing. It's hard not to take offense with something like that. Assuming these things are genetic, my kids are going to be prone to addiction, anxiety and OCD too (my wife suffers from the last two, I suffer from the first two) but that's okay... It comes down again to whether or not people are better off not being born in the first place.

A lot of people I know say they think it is immoral to bring a child into the world. That always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm just not quite at that point of human self-hatred... and I don't think I ever will be.

I'm sure a little tub of Yoghurt Gravy would have a lot to offer the world.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

✿Dai₷y✿[/USER]]If you are the woman who finds herself pregnant then it is your buisness what you do from there.

Anyone else: your opinion and what it is based on is irrelevant.

Would you feel the same way if babies were hatched out of big eggs?

Human biology dictates that women have to carry babies to term. I think this is what the entire issue revolves around.

Does anybody think abortion should exist (excluding rape / incest / disability) in a world where humans lay big eggs that simply need to be incubated?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I believe in an overpopulated planet. I believe in our future. I care more about our species than I do all other life in the universe.

I believe it makes more sense to care less about more autonomous humans; the more autonomous they are, the less you care about them: that's natural.

Vulnerability is cute.

This is why toddlers are cute and tax accountants are not.

It sucks to grow up and gradually shift from that cute lovable thing to a human that nobody cares about, but - hell - there are a lot of us. Too many to care about.

The strongest bond you can have (I think) is to your biological children. I never adopted children. So, I don't know. But, the bond with my child is extremely strong. She is a person, separate from all people. She is the only person on the planet that I could possibly feel this way about.

I can imagine a bond forming with an adopted child. I don't think there is much of a difference, but I imagine there is a difference. Maybe that makes me an asshole.

I have considered adopting a child, but I am driven on a primal level to reproduce and I honestly don't want to (adopt). I totally see the nobility (as someone said) within the adoption process and I have a lot of respect for people who do adopt children - particularly if they can have their own and they chose not to - but at the same time, it confuses me a bit.

I love my grandfather. I have a lot of pride in my family. I am a mix of European ancestries. Scottish, English, Irish and German. There have been some weird people in my family for sure, but I don't believe that some families need to be ended... I think generations can bleed into each other and it not be genetic.

To some extent, I think the assholes win if some of us believe we deserve to die.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

IMAGE.

*EGG (SUFFERING IMPOSED BY OTHERS)

 

[JessFR]

I think I've had enough of this thread. Too many (not all) are basically saying "it's all well and good that you have all these complex philosophical arguments, problem is I'm right because I say so". And to be clear, saying "if you're not the one having the abortion it's not your decision" is saying "I'm right because...". For reasons I've already explained at length 3 or 4 times now.

There's simply no point debating with people who keep coming back with "I'm right cause I'm right".

That said I appreciate the few that at least engaged to some degree in civil debate. I'd still say this abortion thread went a lot better than previous ones. There wasn't too much uncivil debate, which is a big improvement over previous abortion threads I've seen here.

You can believe what you believe, but it's not gonna go anywhere, or even try, unsuccessfully to get anywhere, to just say "your opinion about why your opinion matters doesn't matter because of my opinion, which in my opinion matters".

 

[Xorkoth]

I mean I'm not exactly sure how anyone isn't doing the same thing when discussing this topic. Some people are saying that a fetus isn't a human yet, and you're saying it is. It's an arbitrary distinction, based on belief. There are no smoking gun facts that can prove one side or the other correct. Like many existential topics, it is only possible to insist that you're right because you're right. Not really sure what more you can ask for.

 

[Deru]

I agree. I think it's more along the lines of people believe they are right, which is honestly all you can expect of anyone in this world - for people to act in good faith to which they believe and calculate what is right at a given moment in time.

These topics are complex and typically never have a "right or wrong" absolute, binary answer.

 

[MsDiz]

I believe in an overpopulated planet. I believe in our future. I care more about our species than I do all other life in the universe.

I believe it makes more sense to care less about more autonomous humans; the more autonomous they are, the less you care about them: that's natural.

Vulnerability is cute.

This is why toddlers are cute and tax accountants are not.

It sucks to grow up and gradually shift from that cute lovable thing to a human that nobody cares about, but - hell - there are a lot of us. Too many to care about.

The strongest bond you can have (I think) is to your biological children. I never adopted children. So, I don't know. But, the bond with my child is extremely strong. She is a person, separate from all people. She is the only person on the planet that I could possibly feel this way about.

I can imagine a bond forming with an adopted child. I don't think there is much of a difference, but I imagine there is a difference. Maybe that makes me an asshole.

I have considered adopting a child, but I am driven on a primal level to reproduce and I honestly don't want to (adopt). I totally see the nobility (as someone said) within the adoption process and I have a lot of respect for people who do adopt children - particularly if they can have their own and they chose not to - but at the same time, it confuses me a bit.

I love my grandfather. I have a lot of pride in my family. I am a mix of European ancestries. Scottish, English, Irish and German. There have been some weird people in my family for sure, but I don't believe that some families need to be ended... I think generations can bleed into each other and it not be genetic.

To some extent, I think the assholes win if some of us believe we deserve to die.

I’m adopted and the bond I formed with my Granny was the closest out of all her grandchildren and even her own children, my aunts and mother. My Granny had vascular dementia but she never once forgot who I was. I was the only one, all the way until she was 93 and died that she remembered because that’s how close we were. We were bonded the moment I was placed in her arm until the day she died in mines. Being adopted has nothing to do with human connection.

 

[JessFR]

Believing you're right is fine, but there are right ways to say it and wrong ways.

"your opinion doesn't matter" that's a wrong way.

"I don't understand why your opinion should matter" that's a right way.

The latter asks a question and solicits interesting further discussion about way the person feels they should have a say.

The former is a statement, usually framed as an argument, that is generally structured as "this is my opinion, it's correct because it's correct, if you disagree you're wrong".

The former is what I object too.

Specifically because it's pointless. It's just yelling ones opinion as if it's fact and leaving it at that, it doesn't stimulate thought and it isn't based off any given moral foundation you can then think about.

Essentially it's the certainty which some here hold that bugs me. How you can be completely certain about something like this, well it makes me thing you don't really think much about it at all.

I am not certain of my position at all, but I'm not gonna have further doubts about it by people just staying their conclusions and saying they're right because they're right.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I'm sure a little tub of Yoghurt Gravy would have a lot to offer the world.

Maybe. I don't think it's worth knowing one way or the other.

 

[Phoenix_03]

Wow, your mom sounds like a nutter...


Nope, just the reality. It corresponds to the Bible belt.

Yes, I don’t know how I turned out as well as I did considering I was raised by an ice queen. As for my drug use starting around age 14, she immediately deemed me an addict and started going to al-anon meetings. Her father was an alcoholic so she’s convinced it’s in her genes and I got the “bad” gene. She had scoliosis and was in constant pain but wouldn’t take anything stronger than ibuprofen nor would she drink more than one glass of wine for fear of activating her “addiction gene”.

I know it corresponds to the Bible Belt, just didn’t want to sound judgmental or offend anyone. Growing up in New England and being used to people having certain beliefs then going down south or somewhere in the Midwest is jarring.

 

[Phoenix_03]

Yes, I don’t know how I turned out as well as I did considering I was raised by an ice queen. As for my drug use starting around age 14, she immediately deemed me an addict and started going to al-anon meetings. Her father was an alcoholic so she’s convinced it’s in her genes and I got the “bad” gene. She had scoliosis and was in constant pain but wouldn’t take anything stronger than ibuprofen nor would she drink more than one glass of wine for fear of activating her “addiction gene”.

I know it corresponds to the Bible Belt, just didn’t want to sound judgmental or offend anyone. Growing up in New England and being used to people having certain beliefs then going down south or somewhere in the Midwest is jarring.

It’s funny after I posted that I started thinking about my mother and she actually doesn’t fit in with the majority of people I’ve known growing up as far as their beliefs. She’s from Long Island and lived most of her life there, or in CT just like me. She’s racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic, thinks anyone using substances is a “low-life junkie” and just overall had a very negative vibe and view of the world. The only takeaway from my childhood that I agree with her on is religion, she thought churches were fronts for getting money from people and rejected her Catholic upbringing. Yet, she went and had me and my siblings baptized. When I say she’s a hypocrite and completely full of shit that’s just one example of why. Also, all the things I listed describing her are things she would never actually admit to. Sorry to ramble, I don’t even remember the original topic or post I wrote I just can’t stand her.

 

[Phoenix_03]

I’m not sure why I can’t make a very practical argument that has nothing to do with morality and you can just call it irrelevant.
I just don’t view abortion as a moral issue. I view it as a medical procedure that should be available.
The fact that I think it should be rare but not stigmatized, the fact that I think birth control should be available widely and that sex education should be done early and well... those are not medical or scientific opinions (although I’d argue they are practical and they are supported by some studies as being effective deterrents for unwanted pregnancy).
But when it comes to the final issue of whether or not I think abortion should be legal, I see it as a policy decision that should be made using science, not morals

I agree 100%. Throwing morals into the mix is what gets everyone worked up. Abortion is a medical procedure just as a colonoscopy is one, yet I don’t hear any objections to that.

 

[JessFR]

I agree 100%. Throwing morals into the mix is what gets everyone worked up. Abortion is a medical procedure just as a colonoscopy is one, yet I don’t hear any objections to that.

Morals are unavoidable. Believing that there's no moral issue is itself because you're moral beliefs are that you don't find it objectionable.

It's like suggesting that banning people from murdering people is a purely objective decision, it's not, it's because we attach moral value to human life and believe that life must be protected.

 

[Zephyn]

Morals are unavoidable. Believing that there's no moral issue is itself because you're moral beliefs are that you don't find it objectionable.

It's like suggesting that banning people from murdering people is a purely objective decision, it's not, it's because we attach moral value to human life and believe that life must be protected.

But outside this specific issue I think you'd agree that life is sentience no?

 

[JessFR]

But outside this specific issue I think you'd agree that life is sentience no?

Uhh, not really, I mean there's various forms of life that aren't sentient.

But OK, let's say you're right, life is sentience. A fetus can generally be considered sentient by 5 months, that's a little earlier than the cutoff most abortion laws use.

So, are you ok with banning abortion once a fetus is sentient?

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I don't really have a problem with abortion, personally. It's not a very interesting topic though, IMO...I understand why people feel strongly one-way-or-another about the issue (at least, I feel like I can conceptualize that, anyway, the pro and anti arguments) but I dunno, just never really got enthused about it I guess lol

 

[birdup.snaildown]

So nobody is going to reply about the giant human egg scenario?

Surely, it doesn't change whether or not it is a developing human life or whether or not it is destined to suffer. So (in a world with giant human eggs need to incubate for 9 months) would the people arguing for abortion also argue for terminating eggs?

Abortion is a medical procedure just as a colonoscopy is one, yet I don’t hear any objections to that.

Why pretend they are the same thing?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I’m adopted and the bond I formed with my Granny was the closest out of all her grandchildren and even her own children, my aunts and mother. My Granny had vascular dementia but she never once forgot who I was. I was the only one, all the way until she was 93 and died that she remembered because that’s how close we were. We were bonded the moment I was placed in her arm until the day she died in mines. Being adopted has nothing to do with human connection.

That story is beautiful, but it doesn't prove that there isn't a particular connection that forms with biological children. I'm not suggesting that adopted children are not loved.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

outside this specific issue I think you'd agree that life is sentience no?

No. I don't think so. Trees are alive. Life is all around us, all the time. It is in the air we breathe and the food we eat. Inside our bodies, there are many living organisms.

Intelligent life requires sentience, but life doesn't.

It's problematic defining when sentience begins, or when exactly a developing human is intelligent enough to be self aware. It doesn't make sense (to me) to assume sentience correlates exactly with the nine month mark, because there are lots of early and late births.

It doesn't seem justified to be able to kill a life during a certain part of it's development because it has not progressed past certain stage. We will never know precisely what point is okay and what point isn't. It's impossible. After birth is where we draw the line. Abortions are performed all over the place. Sometimes they are performed right up to birth. It is more difficult to qualify for late term abortions for a reason. Most countries allow on-demand abortions up till around the end of the first trimester.