Opinion To Be or Not To Be (An Abortion Thread)

[cduggles]

I agree he should be. But I don't know that forcing him to be when he doesn't want to be is actually better.

I’m just stating what I think should happen, not what does happen. A few men change their minds once the baby is born, etc., and I just think it’s best for everyone to try to be mature and do what is best for the baby. And unicorns and rainbows lol.

 

[JessFR]

Well yea, I agree.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

If people want to ban abortion/limit BC access, why don't they foster/adopt/etc.? I recall talking to my parents a few years back, suggesting I was more willing to adopt than to have my own child due to bad genes on both sides. They were shocked and horrified. Super Catholic Pro-fetus types. So I'm like... why does the 'baby's' rights end upon birth?

It's like a meme I saw once, it had a pic of a kid sorta flailing/drowning and a mother happily holding a baby in her arms with her back to the kid in the pool, with pro-lifers labelled as the mom, and the drowning child as the babies born as a result of pro-fetus people.

If you're gonna force children into existence... you should pay for it. Isn't that the 'Christian' way?

This argument has come up a couple of times, now. If you're pro-abortion, apparently you should be willing to adopt x amount (or an infinite amount) of babies?

This only makes sense if you think the issue entirely revolves are whether or not people aren't willing to adopt those babies. I don't care if they get adopted, in terms of whether or not I like abortions performed out of convenience.

If you don't like infanticide, should you be personally willing to care for all the children who get murdered?

Stopping abortions isn't forcing children into existence. They exist already. Aborting them is forcing them out of their future existence.

 

[mal3volent]

What about now?

I'm pro-choice in that I recognize it is ultimately up to the choice of the mother. I don't want to live in a society that endorses forced childbirth. The implications of that if you really think about it are terrifying.

But I also like challenging the typical pro choice narrative since I didn't come to my conclusion for the same reason as most.

 

[cduggles]

I feel like I have a policy side (pro choice) and a personal side (a little more pro life, but still pro choice). I think if I ever have to make the decision for myself it will be excruciating if the situation is fraught.

edit: meaning if the stars were aligned with everyone, I’d be happy. I’m not anti-baby!

 

[JessFR]

I actually used birth control (the pill mostly, now I have a copper IUD) since 16 (I believe) because I knew I did not want a child I could not afford at a young age.

I am lucky I had access to it.

I actually have not had a sexual relationship yet.

But I felt I should be proactive on this issue.

This is really smart and responsible.
I wish I could say I have been as responsible in my life, in truth I've taken a bunch of boneheaded risks involving unprotected sex (along with many other risks completely unrelated to this discussion) that worked out only because of dumb luck... Especially during my out of control heroin habit.

 

[JessFR]

I feel like I have a policy side (pro choice) and a personal side (a little more pro life, but still pro choice). I think if I ever have to make the decision for myself it will be excruciating if the situation is fraught.

I totally get that. That's kinda what I'm saying when I go back and forth between saying I don't believe in abortion but am not prepared to ban it.

The latter is a policy opinion, but even if my policy opinion is not to ban it, at least not entirely, my personal belief is that it's almost always wrong.

 

[MsDiz]

I mean, as it stands, women have really lucked out in this equation, don't you think? They're cheered on to make any decision they choose while men have their fate tied to someone else's impulse.

Does it seem fair to you that Male 1 could undergo severe trauma from losing what they perceive as their child and Male B could be forced into economic distress for nearly twenty years? Meanwhile Male C (the happy and content male) can only exist if the Female allows it.

I'm slightly nauseated that I could be perceived as one of those men's rights bozos now. That wasn't my intention. My thing is fairness. I really get hung up on fairness.

Am I seeing things all wrong here? Help me out

Women have Lucked out? Fucking hell, it’s far from it. Being pregnant is really fucking hard on a woman’s body. Having an abortion is also really fucking hard on a woman’s body. For an early term abortion you are given excess hormones that cause your uterus to contract. It’s painful and bloody and your hormones are up the left. For a late term abortion you are either sedated and are dilated and the foetus evacuated or you’re inducted. You still will be filled with hormones for ages. Your body and mind goes through some crazy changes whilst pregnant. (Even if you abort).

To say women have it easy? In my country women couldn’t even have an abortion here until last year. They had to save and go to England or do it illegally and dangerously. Or have the baby and not be able to support it.

Male 1 is undergoing trauma? Is it as bad as having an abortion? Really? I’m sorry but no, the woman is the one losing out here. Not only is she physically suffering but she will be mentally suffering also and whilst I feel for the male he had fucking sex without a condom. What did he expect? What did she expect? Both have got their dues. Even with a condom, they can break.

Male B, forced into economic distress? Why is he having unprotected sex? Doesn’t he realise that it can create life? Is he stupid? I’m sorry but I have absolutely no sympathy. You create life you pay for it.

I’m really pretty shocked that this is the point of view you’re coming from. The man has it easy here. He can run the fuck away and guess what, most fucking do! That’s why there are so many single mothers and so little single dads ffs. Women are the ones left with the responsibility as per. Even when with a partner the women takes on way more of the responsibility.

I’m sorry Mal but men are the ones to get away easy with this.

Big tip to all men who don’t want kids, wear a condom but realise condoms break and you might still create a little life. Don’t want a kid? Don’t have sex.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Women have Lucked out? Fucking hell, it’s far from it.

men are the ones to get away easy with this.

It is neither easy for men or women.

I’m really pretty shocked that this is the point of view you’re coming from. The man has it easy here. He can run the fuck away and guess what, most fucking do!

Most men run away?

 

[Zephyn]

Women have Lucked out? Fucking hell, it’s far from it. Being pregnant is really fucking hard on a woman’s body. Having an abortion is also really fucking hard on a woman’s body. For an early term abortion you are given excess hormones that cause your uterus to contract. It’s painful and bloody and your hormones are up the left. For a late term abortion you are either sedated and are dilated and the foetus evacuated or you’re inducted. You still will be filled with hormones for ages. Your body and mind goes through some crazy changes whilst pregnant. (Even if you abort).

To say women have it easy? In my country women couldn’t even have an abortion here until last year. They had to save and go to England or do it illegally and dangerously. Or have the baby and not be able to support it.

Male 1 is undergoing trauma? Is it as bad as having an abortion? Really? I’m sorry but no, the woman is the one losing out here. Not only is she physically suffering but she will be mentally suffering also and whilst I feel for the male he had fucking sex without a condom. What did he expect? What did she expect? Both have got their dues. Even with a condom, they can break.

Male B, forced into economic distress? Why is he having unprotected sex? Doesn’t he realise that it can create life? Is he stupid? I’m sorry but I have absolutely no sympathy. You create life you pay for it.

I’m really pretty shocked that this is the point of view you’re coming from. The man has it easy here. He can run the fuck away and guess what, most fucking do! That’s why there are so many single mothers and so little single dads ffs. Women are the ones left with the responsibility as per. Even when with a partner the women takes on way more of the responsibility.

I’m sorry Mal but men are the ones to get away easy with this.

Big tip to all men who don’t want kids, wear a condom but realise condoms break and you might still create a little life. Don’t want a kid? Don’t have sex.

Men who run from their children are the worst kind of cowards

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Men who run from their children are the worst kind of cowards

Abortion is like running sometimes.

 

[mal3volent]

Women have Lucked out? Fucking hell, it’s far from it. Being pregnant is really fucking hard on a woman’s body. Having an abortion is also really fucking hard on a woman’s body. For an early term abortion you are given excess hormones that cause your uterus to contract. It’s painful and bloody and your hormones are up the left. For a late term abortion you are either sedated and are dilated and the foetus evacuated or you’re inducted. You still will be filled with hormones for ages. Your body and mind goes through some crazy changes whilst pregnant. (Even if you abort).

Ok, so I obviously meant that women lucked out in the equation of "who gets to make the decisions for both parties". I never suggested that childbirth was easy or that going through an abortion was easy.

To say women have it easy? In my country women couldn’t even have an abortion here until last year. They had to save and go to England or do it illegally and dangerously. Or have the baby and not be able to support it.

Again, never said "they have it easy". I fully support the right to abortion. I'm simply trying to address some issues that aren't frequently discussed. If you remain intellectually honest and logically consistent, I think you will agree the points I make have merit.

Male 1 is undergoing trauma? Is it as bad as having an abortion? Really? I’m sorry but no, the woman is the one losing out here. Not only is she physically suffering but she will be mentally suffering also and whilst I feel for the male he had fucking sex without a condom. What did he expect? What did she expect? Both have got their dues. Even with a condom, they can break.

Number one, yes, I would say losing a child you don't want to lose is harder than going through an abortion that you elect to have. In the scenario I outlined, Male 1 is grieving the loss of their child that the woman chose to terminate. IDK if you got the situations mixed up, but yeah.

Male B, forced into economic distress? Why is he having unprotected sex? Doesn’t he realise that it can create life? Is he stupid? I’m sorry but I have absolutely no sympathy. You create life you pay for it.

Why is he having unprotected sex? Why is SHE having unprotected sex? All your questions can be asked of her as well. The important facts in this scenario are that the woman can free herself of all responsibility if she so chooses, but the male is at the mercy of her decision. If it was an unplanned pregnancy and the female has the right to terminate the pregnancy without the consent of the father (which I support), all I'm saying is the man ought to have the right to opt out of his association with the child as well. He knew the risks, but so did she. If she CHOOSES to proceed with the pregnancy she ought to think it through and give him the same choice she had.

I’m really pretty shocked that this is the point of view you’re coming from. The man has it easy here. He can run the fuck away and guess what, most fucking do! That’s why there are so many single mothers and so little single dads ffs. Women are the ones left with the responsibility as per. Even when with a partner the women takes on way more of the responsibilit

Don't be shocked, just think about my words objectively. Pretty sure I'm not crazy as others here have agreed I've made good points. Remember that I AM ultimately pro choice. I am just bringing up some points that aren't often discussed to drum up some discussion.

I’m sorry Mal but men are the ones to get away easy with this.

Big tip to all men who don’t want kids, wear a condom but realise condoms break and you might still create a little life. Don’t want a kid? Don’t have sex.

Absolutely. But you do agree that what you just said is the equivalent of telling women to keep their legs closed, right? We can do better than that.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Number one, yes, I would say losing a child you don't want to lose is harder than going through an abortion that you elect to have. In the scenario I outlined, Male 1 is grieving the loss of their child that the woman chose to terminate.

Not sure it's that simple which one is worse. Maybe the male and the female in that scenario are grieving the child that she chose to terminate. Is it better or worse to grieve a life you have ended or to grieve a life that someone else has ended?

 

[mal3volent]

Not sure it's that simple which one is worse. Maybe the male and the female in that scenario are grieving the child that she chose to terminate. Is it better or worse to grieve a life you have ended or to grieve a life that someone else has ended?

Again, in this scenario, the woman is choosing to terminate a pregnancy she wants to terminate and the man is losing what he perceives as his child that he does not want to lose. Since she is the vessel where the baby has to grow and she is the one in control of her body, I support her right to end it. But I think it's only fair that males who are in favor of termination ought to have the ability to opt out financially if the woman CHOOSES to have the child.

 

[JessFR]

It really feels to me like sometimes what men are saying is that they think they should be able to have as much sex as they want, be able to renounce any responsibilities that may result from it. And on top of that, BECAUSE of that ability, pressure women into letting them not wear a condom.

Yes, I know none of you are literally saying this, but it often feels like this is how it ultimately adds up when listening to what a lot of men say. Like, I think the fact that there are men who pressure women to let them not wear a condom is fairly uncontested. I would say it's pretty reasonable to assume many of those men are also the ones saying when a woman does get pregnant, she should just abort it or raise it themselves without him.

And refuse to accept the simple answer to all these problems, which is just don't have sex.

No not all men are like this, but it seems like a disturbingly large number are, even if not all of them are entirely conscious that that's how their position works out.

I dunno, part of me is just ranting here so try not to be too offended, this isn't directed to anyone specific. It's just this 'vibe' I get from a lot of arguments when they seem to refuse to not have sex, but also try and avoid consequences of having sex.

 

[JessFR]

I don’t underestimate the trauma the male goes through with abortion.

However I will say I don’t know that legally it would be feasible at this point to give a male say (legally) over a woman having an abortion or not.

However I will say a male’s feelings over the matter of the female pregnant with their child having an abortion are valid.

I'm not sure what you mean by feasible, but we can absolutely change the laws to give men a right to a say. It's just a question of if we should.

I can understand potential trauma from the male side here though.

I've imagined before what it must be like, to be pro-life, and a man, and to know your offspring is going to be terminated and that you have absolutely no say in the matter.
That sure sounds traumatic to me.

And yea, you know, it's absolutely fair to point out that women are the one having to take the baby to term, that's a persuasive argument. But I can see validity in the argument that at least the woman has a choice here, a sucky one, but she's the one who's able to make a life altering long term decision potentially for the both of them.

Does that make it easier to be the woman? No, but it seems to me that it can't be easy being the guy either.

 

[Deru]

It really feels to me like sometimes what men are saying is that they think they should be able to have as much sex as they want, be able to renounce any responsibilities that may result from it. And on top of that, BECAUSE of that ability, pressure women into letting them not wear a condom.

I think men and women are both guilty of this at times. I’ve known more than my fair share of women who want to be able to have as much sex as they want and discourage the use of condoms, as well.

 

[JessFR]

I think men and women are both guilty of this at times. I’ve known more than my fair share of women who want to be able to have as much sex as they want and discourage the use of condoms, as well.

Interesting. You may be right. It may just be perception bias that I'm more familiar with this happening from a hetero female perspective.

 

[JessFR]

I mean it would cause a lot of legal issues...and those could cost the legal system a lot of money that could potentially be spent elsewhere.

Well sure but we could also save the legal system money but legalizing theft. I'm not sure that's enough of a positive to outweigh the negatives though.

 

[w01fg4ng]

Slightly off topic, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a man or a woman having a lot of unprotected consenting sex.

A doctor might advise that person to get on HIV prevention and/or pregnancy prevention pills but there is no reason anyone should have to feel guilty about consenting sex between adults.

Prepare for the consequences or deal with them. No one said being an adult was easy.