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Opinion To Be or Not To Be (An Abortion Thread)

cduggles said:
I’ve repeatedly stated 22 weeks or third trimester except in cases of horrible genetic or developmental defects that would render the baby stillborn or to have a short, excruciating life could be argued to me, as long as abortion was readily accessible financially and logistically, which it isn’t in all of the states in the US.
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I must have missed where you said that, in which case I apologize.
 
cduggles said:
^this except the last paragraph.
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Why don't you agree, if the two discussed and reached an agreement? If the mother does not ask for help, why should the man be forced to give it even if it's not what either of them want?

My girlfriend's dad met a woman 10 years his senior when he was like 22, when hiking in the grand canyon. She had sex with him and they went their separate ways. Two years ago he got a call from a woman, she found out through 23 and me that he was her biological father. Turns out this woman was married, and they'd be trying for years to get pregnant and nothing. She went out and found someone to have sex with, told him she was on birth control but wasn't, with the express purpose of getting pregnant, and then she told her kids (she had twins) and her husband that they were his. I realize this is an extreme case, but if it's never okay for a man to not owe support to the woman no matter what, then wouldn't it be unjust for him to owe her, when he was misled and used?

Anyway back to more normal circumstances, I think if two people agree on something, then they should be able to do whatever they want.
 
Xorkoth said:
Why don't you agree, if the two discussed and reached an agreement? If the mother does not ask for help, why should the man be forced to give it even if it's not what either of them want?

My girlfriend's dad met a woman 10 years his senior when he was like 22, when hiking in the grand canyon. She had sex with him and they went their separate ways. Two years ago he got a call from a woman, she found out through 23 and me that he was her biological father. Turns out this woman was married, and they'd be trying for years to get pregnant and nothing. She went out and found someone to have sex with, told him she was on birth control but wasn't, with the express purpose of getting pregnant, and then she told her kids (she had twins) and her husband that they were his. I realize this is an extreme case, but if it's never okay for a man to not owe support to the woman no matter what, then wouldn't it be unjust for him to owe her, when he was misled and used?

Anyway back to more normal circumstances, I think if two people agree on something, then they should be able to do whatever they want.
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All in all, I would agree with allowing the woman to agree to allowing the man to forfeit is financial obligations.

But there would have to be strict controls, like you'd have to go to court and petition for it, otherwise the existence of the ability to disclaim financial liability would allow men to find ways to force women to enact it.
 
That situation is whack.
Back to normal like, I don’t just think about financial support when I use the word support. Like everyone on here, I’ve got friends who were raised by single parents (mothers, actually), and the absence of their father from the kid’s/now adult’s life impacts it negatively. Similarly, I know people who were adopted by loving parents wonder why their parents abandoned them.
I don’t think arrangements that allow a biological parent to cede responsibility for being a parent are healthy for the baby/child person, and I can only see very few reasons that should happen (e.g., rape, highly abusive individual, etc.).
 
That's a good point. Although I have met people who were adopted where they had 2 loving parents, who do not seem messed up by it (and who claim to be fine too), but it requires the parents always being honest about it and from a very young age explaining the situation and making sure they feel loved and not lied to.

cduggles said:
Oh and @Xorkoth, I think what that woman did to everyone involved is really messed up. Seriously.
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I know, right? So crazy.
 
What about if a woman pretends she's on birth control, when she's not because she wants a baby.

Should the father have to pay then? What are the fathers obligations? Assuming this deception were somehow uncovered I mean.
 
From my point of view, which is the well-being of the baby, whatever support (financial or not) both parents can offer is a requirement. Birth control methods fail, etc. If you risk conceiving, there are consequences if it happens.
So tbc, if the mother is oodles of wealthy, no the poor father doesn’t have to quit school to work two jobs, but he should be a part of the child’s life unless he’s a rapist or a child molester or abusive or something.
 
If people want to ban abortion/limit BC access, why don't they foster/adopt/etc.? I recall talking to my parents a few years back, suggesting I was more willing to adopt than to have my own child due to bad genes on both sides. They were shocked and horrified. Super Catholic Pro-fetus types. So I'm like... why does the 'baby's' rights end upon birth?

It's like a meme I saw once, it had a pic of a kid sorta flailing/drowning and a mother happily holding a baby in her arms with her back to the kid in the pool, with pro-lifers labelled as the mom, and the drowning child as the babies born as a result of pro-fetus people.

If you're gonna force children into existence... you should pay for it. Isn't that the 'Christian' way?
 
mal3volent said:
I'm slightly nauseated that I could be perceived as one of those men's rights bozos now. That wasn't my intention. My thing is fairness. I really get hung up on fairness.
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So long as you're talking about men's rights, you're not a men's rights activist.

Men's right activists don't talk about men's rights, they talk about how evil and horrible women are and how we're shallow sluts for dating assholes instead of a nice guy, like that one that gunned down all those women. :P

It's a shame actually, cause mens rights isn't an invalid topic. I actually think it's not OK how men are expected to have no say at all what happens in a pregnancy. It's still their offspring. I also think the courts are too ready to assume children should always be placed with their mothers. Even if their mother is crack addict prostitute and there's a loving father wanting to take care of them. I know that's an extreme and exaggerated example, but there is truth in it.

It's just "mens rights activists" have done a better job damaging the advocacy of men's rights than the most extreme man hating feminists ever could.
 
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JessFR said:
evil and horrible women are and how we're shallow sluts for dating assholes instead of a nice guy guy
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You gotta be careful about those evil sluts that won't slob your knob for just being 'nice', they're dangerous! They're everywhere!

*I'm being facetious*
 
On the flip side, how much does a guy have the moral right to try to pressure the female to have an abortion? It is not pretty either way if one person wants one thing and another person wants another. 😕
 
I wonder if people ever change their views on things like this. I can't imagine I would ever suddenly become a pro-fetus person.

I recall arguing with my father once, because I was angry that he created me and felt he owed me for doing such a terrible thing. So perhaps my rampant depression and general disgruntled nature have solidified my opinion that to not exist at all can sometimes be better than to have existed, at all. And because I don't believe in any God that would smite me for trying to save a child from the agony of existence, I cannot fathom being anti-abortion. Ergo my position is solidified... and I have a feeling as long as organized religion exists, pro-fetus types will always exist too.

And maybe they shouldn't show parents ultrasounds. That just helps solidify the "fetuses are humans" argument because they look like a weird alien vaguely in the shape of a human.
 
cduggles said:
On the flip side, how much does a guy have the moral right to try to pressure the female to have an abortion? It is not pretty either way if one person wants one thing and another person wants another. 😕
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Seeing as I hate abortion anyway, it shouldn't surprise anyone that my answer to the question of how much moral right a guy has to pressure a woman to have an abortion, is none.
 
Cream Gravy? said:
I wonder if people ever change their views on things like this. I can't imagine I would ever suddenly become a pro-fetus person.

I recall arguing with my father once, because I was angry that he created me and felt he owed me for doing such a terrible thing. So perhaps my rampant depression and general disgruntled nature have solidified my opinion that to not exist at all can sometimes be better than to have existed, at all. And because I don't believe in any God that would smite me for trying to save a child from the agony of existence, I cannot fathom being anti-abortion. Ergo my position is solidified... and I have a feeling as long as organized religion exists, pro-fetus types will always exist too.

And maybe they shouldn't show parents ultrasounds. That just helps solidify the "fetuses are humans" argument because they look like a weird alien vaguely in the shape of a human.
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That's exactly why we (as in the pro life side) frequently want women to have to see what they're destroying before they go ahead with it. Now I do think it sometimes goes too far, from honest moral beliefs to sexist bullying, but to a degree I can sympathize with these requirements.

Interestingly I've been depressed most of my life, spent years suicidal and tried to kill myself.
Nevertheless, I don't have any desire to blame anyone for my existing.

Actually, and maybe this biases me somewhat too, my dad did pressure my mom to abort me. But she refused (or at least this is what I've been told). And I'm glad she did.
 
Cream Gravy? said:
You know abortions generally don't involve any surgery whatsoever, right? Most abortions can be done via medications. You're once again projecting an image of something that doesn't happen from what you imagine abortions to be.

They don't rip babies out at 8 months... oh wait they do, they're called Pre-matures. That's not abortion though. They sometimes get to live, if the right care is there. My sister was a month early.

I think you're really letting imagery/Christianity color your views here.
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Second trimester abortions often require surgery, but it doesn't matter. Killing a life with drugs (or by any other method) is more forceful than telling a woman what she can or can't do with her body.
 
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