Opinion To Be or Not To Be (An Abortion Thread)

[Phoenix_03]

Ireland is a great example of what happens when you don’t have abortion available. The recent unveiling of the reports into the mother and baby homes are an absolute scar on our country. I am ashamed to be Irish at the moment and that’s hard for me to say.

A few years ago we discovered at a Tuam mother and baby home there were no less than 800 babies found in a septic tank. It was “kinder to strangle these children at birth” was a quote of a dr at the time....

Ireland had many of these “housings” and you can imagine how the mothers and children were treated. I’ll add a link but here’s a quote.
“It estimated 9,000 children, 15% of the total, died – an “appalling” infant mortality rate about double the national average. Neglect, poor food and extreme austerity all played a part. Instead of saving the lives of children legally deemed illegitimate, the homes “significantly reduced their prospects of survival”.

These children and their mothers suffered horribly all thanks to the Catholic Church and no abortions.

They are still finding babies bodies in fields currently in Ireland. Recently 700 were found in a field in Cavan.

Ireland publishes report on 'appalling' abuse at mother and baby homes

‘We embraced judgmental, moral certainty and perverse religious morality,’ says taoiseach Micheál Martin

www.theguardian.com

I can’t believe what i just read. That is so cruel and inhumane.

 

[MsDiz]

I was adopted at the ripe old age of 3 DAYS!

I was adopted too! Haha at 6 weeks old. Lucky me!

 

[MsDiz]

I beat you then!

I had people fighting over me though that’s why it took so long so nah nah nah nah....

 

[Phoenix_03]

It seems to me abortion opinions might correlate with what time zone the aforesaid individual lives in lol

That is probably very accurate but time zones indicating American individuals are still going to swing widely from one side to the next. Especially considering which time zone it is. Is it shitty to say east and west coast time zones will lean towards more liberal stances (pro-choice) , while central and mountain time zones will be much more conservative (pro-life)?

 

[Xorkoth]

You said you swat instinctively at mosquitos. I assume you don't swat instinctively at babies. There is a reason for this. It is hard-wired in you. Human babies have more value than mosquitos. They have more value than baby Orangutans. It is important for us (on some level) to realize that this is not true, but it is far more important to maintain the belief that it is true.

Fundamental veganism is impossible. You need to eat life to live. So, unless you want to essentially be a cannibal, there must be a hierarchy.

If you make any effort whatsoever to prevent an insect dying, it should be way more important for you to ensure that humans don't die.

I'm not assuming you're vegan, by the way. It's just a natural extension of your argument about escorting spiders outside.

You can't be a hippy and not hurt a fly if you support abortion.

It absolutely is more important to me that humans don't die, my point is that an unborn embryo is not, in my opinion, a human. It is a potential human, not a whole lot different from a sperm or an egg.

What is the middle ground? If you look into it, it's easier to perform a late abortion in most parts of the world (right up until birth) than it is to qualify for euthanasia.

It's messed up. I have an easier time with euthanasia than abortion. That a person should be able to have the decision to end their own life seems like a no-brainer.

I got pregnant at 17 and knew this was the last thing I should be dealing with but i was so young and scared. I knew as soon as I told my mom she'd take me straight to get an abortion and knowing that, I prolonged telling her without putting conscience effort into it. Deep down I knew I was trying to let enough time go by where an abortion would be impossible by the time she knew. Luckily I've always been tiny so I wasn't obviously showing until I was about 6 months along. She realized, asked me how far along I was and I pretended to be vague and not know. Went to the doc, found out i was 6 months along, first thing she said to the doc was what state will abort this far along? The doctor was shocked to say the least. Then her thing was pushing me to adopt, it was all she talked about. I just kinda went along without knowing what hell I wanted to do. Once I had my son and held him in my arms I knew I absolutely could not give him up. By then I was 18, but an 18 year old is in no way able to handle the emotions that come with having a first child and then having to make the ultimate sacrifice. I ended up keeping him and my mom kicked me out and called DCF hoping that would get my son taken. I had other family who had stepped in and offered support by then so the DCF worker was more than happy to let me keep my son and she, too, was appalled at my mom. She's a piece of work. Anyway, sorry to get way off topic but as for abortion - I know I personally could not have one. I don't think I could handle the aftermath and guilt. But I support another woman or girl's choice to have one, there's tons of situations where it's just not feasible to expect her to keep the baby without any money or outside support nor expect her to be able to give birth to her child then give it to someone else. Not to mention pregnancies that are the result of rape or incest. That's traumatic in so many ways and I would not blame anyone one bit for having an abortion in that case, especially a very young girl. These are all huge, personal choices that only the mother, and father if he's there, can make. Outside opinions mean fuck all.

Wow, your mom sounds like a nutter...

It has always been my understanding that plan b does indeed generally prevent fertilization (and I quickly Googled before posting this and it would appear to reconfirm my existing understanding). In which case no I have absolutely no objections to its use.

But what if the human that egg would have turned out to be would have objected to having been prevented from being born? What if they would have gone on to cure cancer?

Am I happy and glad and grateful that I wasn't aborted? Don't actually give a shit and for sure it makes no difference. Because I put it to you that if you remove the religious rhetoric and indoctrination from these types of arguments: I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't have known shit from a shovel.

This is a great point. When people ask if you would have preferred to have not been born, it's not really a sensible question, as if you hadn't been born, you wouldn't have an opinion either way. You would have never existed so no one would miss you, including yourself.

Maybe if your mom aborted you at a time in her life when she would have struggled to provide the proper love and care for you, and then gotten pregnant again, you would have been born into a better life?

That is probably very accurate but time zones indicating American individuals are still going to swing widely from one side to the next. Especially considering which time zone it is. Is it shitty to say east and west coast time zones will lean towards more liberal stances (pro-choice) , while central and mountain time zones will be much more conservative (pro-life)?

Nope, just the reality. It corresponds to the Bible belt.

 

[cduggles]

It has always been my understanding that plan b does indeed generally prevent fertilization (and I quickly Googled before posting this and it would appear to reconfirm my existing understanding). In which case no I have absolutely no objections to its use.

Plan B works by preventing ovulation, preventing fertilization and (or) preventing implantation per Mayo Clinic and the CDC.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

So the argument comes down to how we define life/consciousness. I don't believe a fetus is a human life, ergo not murder, ergo totally okay to abort.

If I saw a child shooting a squirrel with a BB gun I'd probably spank him/find his parents and admonish them; that's an actual, living, breathing life.


Man, the Catholic Church/Evangelicals really fucked up peoples' perceptions of what 'life' is exactly. One might call it 'fake news'.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

IMHO preventing fertilization of the ovum is by far the preferred method of controlling unintended and unwanted births, however abortions should be available for cases where that either wasn't possible or didn't happen.

Making abortions unavailable is forcing a world view on an individual.

 

[JessFR]

Making abortions unavailable is forcing a world view on an individual.

I'm gonna asplode. It's only a matter of time. you're all partly responsible for it to too!

Technically yes it is forcing a world view on individuals, we do that ALL THE TIME in human society. Saying parents can't murder their babies after they're born is also a world view. Not murdering them at 1 year is a world view.

Whatever cutoff you make that's your subjective moral belief in the subject and you see nothing wrong with forcing others to comply with it because you don't think forcing someone to not kill a baby, 1 year old, 3 year old etc is a problem.

But your point of delineation is not absolute, it's a moral belief.

Ours is just earlier than yours. Yet we don't accuse you of pushing your beliefs on others by doing this.

But you are. If you think a mother or father shouldn't be allowed to kill their 3 year old, that is just as much pushing your belief on them.

And this is when I hear you say "but a 3 year old is a person". YEAH, EXACTLY. You think it has a right to live because it's a human being, we essentially believe the same, just starting younger.

Then you usually come back with a response which boils down to "yeah but we are correct and you are incorrect". And well, we think the same, that's kinda why we're arguing over it to start with.

I've tried to make this point over and over and the next time someone says it I think I'll just ignore it.

But there is nothing unique about pro lifers believing others should follow their moral code, you're doing exactly that too, just for a later perspective of personhood.

 

[JessFR]

To all pro choicers out there... I want you to imagine a hypotherical.

Imagine I came and said I believed mothers should have a right to kill their children for any reason up till a cutoff of 4 years old, on the grounds that they can't survive independently and the mother has a right to decide what to do with her life.

I expect roughly 100% of you would object. And tell me killing 4 year olds is wrong.

I will then reply to you, it's fine if you don't wanna kill your 4 year old, but don't force your opinion me and my rights. I want you to imagine how you would feel and respond to that. How frustrated you'd be.

You will then of course say "a 4 year old is a person, it's not just YOUR rights".

I will reply that that's your opinion, but a 4 year old doesn't have the brain development of an adult, it can't think like an adult can, and it is dependant on me to survive.

This is pretty much exactly what it's like to be on the pro life side.

And intellectually it's very frustrating that so many of the pro choice arguments here are essentially circular. They are arguments that depend on the assumption that you are correct to work. They don't argue that you are correct, they assume you are correct then argue from that basis.

We're never gonna be able to accept "oh well I guess we just won't have abortions ourselves" anymore than you'd accept "oh well I just don't kill my 4 year old then".

And before you come back and say those situations are different, yeah, they are, one human is more developed than the other... And that's it. It's a line being drawn by the adults, by the political actors of the world, and it's arbitrary.

Tl;DR Nou.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

But what if the human that egg would have turned out to be would have objected to having been prevented from being born? What if they would have gone on to cure cancer?

An egg is not life. Opting not to have sex (and therefore not creating life in the first place) is different than choosing to end it.

When people ask if you would have preferred to have not been born, it's not really a sensible question, as if you hadn't been born, you wouldn't have an opinion either way. You would have never existed so no one would miss you, including yourself.

It's a sensible enough question, I think. You can't know what it would be like to not exist... Sure. I get that. And if you never existed in the first place, blah blah. But you do exist. Most people wouldn't prefer to have never have been born.

If you said to someone "Excuse me, would you prefer to have been murdered last Tuesday?", they will most likely say no... I don't think most people want to be killed when they're one year old, for pretty much the same reason. The answer doesn't change (for me anyway) at any age.

Considering whether or not the life we are terminating would consent later in life makes sense to me... especially if the abortion is supposedly being done for the sake of the life being terminated.

People keep pointing out that - in many situations - it's better for the baby not to develop. I think (most of the time) this is just an excuse.

I think it's important to call a spade a spade.

Most abortions aren't performed for the good of the child.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Making abortions unavailable is forcing a world view on an individual.

Surgery is more forceful.

 

[Xorkoth]

Considering whether or not the life we are terminating would consent later in life makes sense to me... especially if the abortion is supposedly being done for the sake of the life being terminated.

People keep pointing out that - in many situations - it's better for the baby not to develop. I think (most of the time) this is just an excuse.

I think it's important to call a spade a spade.

Most abortions aren't performed for the good of the child.

I think most people who are in favor of the choice to abort are well aware it's being done for the good of the mother a lot of the time. They just place a much higher value on the life of an already-existing adult (or teenage) human, than on the life of an unborn bundle of cells who doesn't have consciousness yet.

My last post was trying to illustrate that "what ifs" are vaporous and can be used to try to tilt the argument either way. I'm more concerned with what currently is than what could be. That was the purpose of my trying to compare the wasting of a sperm or the blocking of egg fertilization with aborting an embryo. Either way, there is a potential human who won't exist now. And speculating on what could have been is equal valid (or invalid) for both cases.

 

[cduggles]

There’s a simple difference between a fetus and the four-year old in your example, @JessFR. I could say “I’ll take care of that four-year old right now. I can’t do anything for the fetus. It’s not an applicable comparison.

 

[JessFR]

There’s a simple difference between a fetus and the four-year old in your example, @JessFR. I could say “I’ll take care of that four-year old right now. I can’t do anything for the fetus. It’s not an applicable comparison.

That's 'a' difference, but why does the existence of that difference actually make a difference?

You're judging that that difference sufficiently changes things to make one able to be killed and the other not. I disagree.

 

[cduggles]

It’s a practical difference.

 

[JessFR]

It’s a practical difference.

There's no denying the difference exists. What impact it has on the moral equation however is open for debate.

 

[cduggles]

As previously mentioned, I don’t think this is a moral argument.

 

[JessFR]

As previously mentioned, I don’t think this is a moral argument.

Well I disagree with that too, quite strongly Infact.

How can it not be a moral argument?
This is ultimately a question if if you think terminating a pregnancy is morally OK or not.

There's lots of objective measures you can weigh to come to your moral conclusion, but it's still a moral argument not an objective one.

 

[cduggles]

I’m not sure why I can’t make a very practical argument that has nothing to do with morality and you can just call it irrelevant.
I just don’t view abortion as a moral issue. I view it as a medical procedure that should be available.
The fact that I think it should be rare but not stigmatized, the fact that I think birth control should be available widely and that sex education should be done early and well... those are not medical or scientific opinions (although I’d argue they are practical and they are supported by some studies as being effective deterrents for unwanted pregnancy).
But when it comes to the final issue of whether or not I think abortion should be legal, I see it as a policy decision that should be made using science, not morals.