Opinion To Be or Not To Be (An Abortion Thread)

[Zephyn]

Awesome, people have long eaten the placenta, eating the baby does seem like the natural next step.

Eating placenta is gross and should be illegal

 

[Deleted member 521610]

well some cultures use to eat babies in tribal warfare but evolved past such barbarism.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Xorkoth.

Just thought I'd point out: of course you don't like killing babies.

I was teasing you.

I do, however, find it extraordinary how many pro-choice vegans there are.

Escorting a spider outside rather than killing it is lovely. In NZ, it's illegal to catch or kill the katipo spider even though it's basically a redback (black widow). If you find them in your house, I'm not sure what you're supposed to do with them. You don't see them very often, because they're endangered... but if there was one crawling on my daughter's bed I'd kill it. No hesitation. I don't give a fuck.

It is impossible not to value life based on how closely it is related to you. This applies within our own species (your father's life has more value than your second cousin) and it also applies outside of our species (a monkey has more value than a leech).

People don't like eating lambs because they're cute and babies are cute.

Spiders are so far removed from humans, they might as well be aliens. Squashing a million spiders doesn't equal squashing one baby. They are, relatively speaking, nothing.

Having said that, racism stems from this line of thinking. People justify treating other races as inferior because they are different.

I shouldn't kill spiders for this reason, but I do.

You said you swat instinctively at mosquitos. I assume you don't swat instinctively at babies. There is a reason for this. It is hard-wired in you. Human babies have more value than mosquitos. They have more value than baby Orangutans. It is important for us (on some level) to realize that this is not true, but it is far more important to maintain the belief that it is true.

Fundamental veganism is impossible. You need to eat life to live. So, unless you want to essentially be a cannibal, there must be a hierarchy.

If you make any effort whatsoever to prevent an insect dying, it should be way more important for you to ensure that humans don't die.

I'm not assuming you're vegan, by the way. It's just a natural extension of your argument about escorting spiders outside.

You can't be a hippy and not hurt a fly if you support abortion.

 

[JessFR]

Eating placenta is gross and should be illegal

It's my body!
If I wanna get pregnant over and over again so I can indulge in delicious placenta and then discard the waste baby, who are you to call it wrong!

 

[Deleted member 521610]

If your pure vegan you care about freedom the most that you don't care if others eat meat.

 

[Zephyn]

@Xorkoth.

Just thought I'd point out: of course you don't like killing babies.

I was teasing you.

I do, however, find it extraordinary how many pro-choice vegans there are.

Escorting a spider outside rather than killing it is lovely. In NZ, it's illegal to catch or kill the katipo spider even though it's basically a redback (black widow). If you find them in your house, I'm not sure what you're supposed to do with them. You don't see them very often, because they're endangered... but if there was one crawling on my daughter's bed I'd kill it. No hesitation. I don't give a fuck.

It is impossible not to value life based on how closely it is related to you. This applies within our own species (your father's life has more value than your second cousin) and it also applies outside of our species (a monkey has more value than a leech).

People don't like eating lambs because they're cute and babies are cute.

Spiders are so far removed from humans, they might as well be aliens. Squashing a million spiders doesn't equal squashing one baby. They are, relatively speaking, nothing.

Having said that, racism stems from this line of thinking. People justify treating other races as inferior because they are different.

I shouldn't kill spiders for this reason, but I do.

You said you swat instinctively at mosquitos. I assume you don't swat instinctively at babies. There is a reason for this. It is hard-wired in you. Human babies have more value than mosquitos. They have more value than baby Orangutans. It is important for us (on some level) to realize that this is not true, but it is far more important to maintain the belief that it is true.

Fundamental veganism is impossible. You need to eat life to live. So, unless you want to essentially be a cannibal, there must be a hierarchy.

If you make any effort whatsoever to prevent an insect dying, it should be way more important for you to ensure that humans don't die.

I'm not assuming you're vegan, by the way. It's just a natural extension of your argument about escorting spiders outside.

You can't be a hippy and not hurt a fly if you support abortion.

Jess is right about the prochoice people making statements that inherently implies their opinion is right, but so is how all you prolifers keep referring to fetuses as humans

 

[birdup.snaildown]

17.4%, +/- 1.2%

I like a bit of mathematical sarcasm, now and then. Nobody knows what the number is. But - for the sake of the discussion - let's be conservative with your guess and assume 20% of abortions in the US are the best course of action.

That means 80% are not the best course of action, right?

 

[JessFR]

Well, the fetus definitely is human in the sense that it's organic matter made of human DNA. I would be surprised if that's contested.

I've done my best to avoid making any arguments that only work if you take as a preexisting assumption that the fetus has a right to life though.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

within 9 weeks a fetus has human organs.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

all you prolifers keep referring to fetuses as humans

We are talking about human fetuses, aren't we? They do not belong to another species. They are not void of species. Their DNA is fully formed at the moment of conception. It is human DNA. Therefore, they are human.

If you said we call fetuses babies, sure "we" have a tendency to do that. Personally I am definitely guilty of this, but I'm not doing it because I'm trying to twist things around. Maybe they are twisted in my head. I don't know. When I look at my daughter, I can see that she will be an adult woman one day. She is a child now, but a child becomes a woman. I don't look at a sapling that I planted and think of it only as a sapling. It is a tree, in waiting.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@Xorkoth

let's be conservative with your guess and assume 20% of abortions in the US are the best course of action

For the record, my guess is around 1-2%. So - if the choice is binary; if we are looking at the argument in terms of hard-line pro choice versus pro life - clearly it is better from my perspective to not kill 98-99% of babies to save the 1-2% from suffering. I'm curious as to why you think differently.

Is it better to kill (or "prevent being alive" if you prefer) 80% of babies out of convenience, it that means you save 20% of them from suffering?

If so, would you apply this to adult populations?

There are a lot of anti-abortion activists who were almost aborted when they were a fetus. I've never encountered anyone (online or in person) that says they would have preferred to be aborted... So I think 20% is crazy, honestly... But, let's assume that 20% isn't crazy. It still doesn't make sense to me to kill the 80%.

 

[JessFR]

Is noone gonna help me experiment with placenta recipes?

Pfft, bet if I asked for help with making the placentas I'd have plenty of volunteers.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Like every topic of discussion, this is a spectrum. It is not binary. There's @JessFR and @TripSitterNZ and me on the pro-life side. All of us exist on different parts of the spectrum. @TripSitterNZ says we should sterilize people. I'm not sure what separates @JessFR and me. The incestual rape situation is a valid exemption, for me, but it's still killing a human life. It's still killing a baby. Maybe that baby is yet to become a baby, but I don't care about that sort of meaningless distinction.

No issue is truly binary. Everybody has an opinion on everything and everybody's opinion is different. I'm not @JGrimez because I don't dislike Trump. (I struggle to write that I like him anymore because some forum members I'm quite fond of *cough* Jess *cough* make me feel like an asshole when I allow myself to be honest.) I'm not an asshole because I like Trump. You can't rightly assume that I'm just some automaton because I like him. I like him and I don't like him.

I am conflicted about abortion. @JessFR said she was conflicted about it too. Obviously there are people on the pro-choice side that are conflicted. This is not something we should take lightly. It is human life. There is no way around that.

Bodily autonomy doesn't trump the rights of a fetus.

My nephew was born 11 weeks early. That's nearly three months. He was almost born in the second trimester. Anyway, he's a wonderful little guy. I love him a lot... Dividing the argument into pro-life and pro-choice prevents us from finding a middle ground that most people agree on. I think @JessFR would be happy with such a middle ground. I have already defined what I'd be happy with. @TripSitterNZ agrees, I think.

Abortion needs to be regulated.

I think most people would agree my nephew shouldn't have been aborted for any reason. The vast majority of people don't think abortions should be performed right up until the end of the third trimester.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Is noone gonna help me experiment with placenta recipes?

I will have a bite, if that helps? Killing babies is less shocking than eating a bit of placenta. I honestly don't think it's weird. Maybe I would freak out if there was a plate in front of me. I don't know. I honestly think I'd have a bite.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

One of the best arguments for abortion is stem cells.
Surprised nobody has mentioned this.

 

[Zephyn]

I will have a bite, if that helps? Killing babies is less shocking than eating a bit of placenta. I honestly don't think it's weird. Maybe I would freak out if there was a plate in front of me. I don't know. I honestly think I'd have a bite.

Was joking about the placenta ftr. Well, I'm out, i think we've come as far as we can, feel free to keep rehashing it. I think there is some middle ground and I think we've reached that with current usa laws. As a libertarian(-socialist) i find it abhorrent to make any law violating anyone's bodily autonomy and as my vantage point of not considering a fetus life yet is not likely to change, I just don't consider that an embryo or more has autonomy yet. I can't say when I consider it too far, as I don't know enough about human development

 

[JessFR]

I will have a bite, if that helps? Killing babies is less shocking than eating a bit of placenta. I honestly don't think it's weird. Maybe I would freak out if there was a plate in front of me. I don't know. I honestly think I'd have a bite.

Wow really? All joking aside, I consider myself pretty adventurous as far as trying new foods, thiiiis would be a tough one though.

Not saying I wouldn't try, but there's a lot of foods I think most people would refuse to touch I'd gladly try before human placenta. :D

 

[Zephyn]

One of the best arguments for abortion is stem cells.
Surprised nobody has mentioned this.

I did mention it, however most often stem cells are derived by insemination donated eggs in a lab, not from abortions

 

[JessFR]

I did mention it, however most often stem cells are derived by insemination donated eggs in a lab, not from abortions

Which is a whole issue of its own for people to debate.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

As a libertarian(-socialist) i find it abhorrent to make any law violating anyone's bodily autonomy

That's not a middle ground. That's a fundamental statement.

I think there is some middle ground and I think we've reached that with current usa laws...

What is the middle ground? If you look into it, it's easier to perform a late abortion in most parts of the world (right up until birth) than it is to qualify for euthanasia.

and as my vantage point of not considering a fetus life yet is not likely to change, I just don't consider that an embryo or more has autonomy yet.

Autonomy doesn't define life. Does it? (Fair warning: I am setting you up here. It doesn't. Babies aren't autonomous.)

I can't say when I consider it too far, as I don't know enough about human development

Whether or not you want to investigate this issue is up to you. I put it to you that if you do investigate it, you will struggle to be able to pinpoint a moment that cells change into life.