Thoughts on running an AI after Clomid Therapy

PARooolller

PARooolller

Bluelighter
Joined
Mar 28, 2005
Messages
2,434
yo bros,

I'm in week 3 of an 8 week Havoc cycle and will run my typical low dose Clomid PCT for 4 weeks with a dosing scheme as follows

week 1-25mg
week 2-25mg
week 3-15mg
week 4-10mg

I love clomid for pct because of its action with the ball sac and its other modes of action...I usually expereience sides such as acne, vision changes, depression, fat gain, and water retention--typical sides for a SERM

We all know clomid RAISES estrogen also, and no matter how much i taper i always get a little rebound...

Could I run an AI after my clomid therapy to cut down on these sides?

school me on AI's I've never taken any and would like to know their sides/downsides..
 
I think your best bet would be to start taking an AI right now, ya should have started day one. I'd suggest adex or aromasin. I to am a fan of clomid for PCT. Sucks you still get some rebound even after tapering.

/V
 
Maybe start a low dose AI on week 3 of the PCT and run 1 week longer than the SERM tapering down from week 4.
 
p-mo said:
Maybe start a low dose AI on week 3 of the PCT and run 1 week longer than the SERM tapering down from week 4.
Click to expand...

ok i might do that...any suggestions as to what kind? armidex? femara?

Havoc acts like an AI so i feel that running it alongside would be pointless
 
Id say Armidex- after havoc and ferma I'm guessing you'd have some sore joints.
 
I'd also consider Aromasin. I've never used the stuff, but know many who have. Aromasin is much stronger than Adex...if you are gyno prone, I'd opt for the Aromasin. I run Adex as I am not that prone to gyno.

/V
 
I like the AI post-clomid. Of course the best of all is aromasin (exemestane) which can be run in PCT as well as after, and during the cycle also, obviously. :)
 
Is anyone hearing the poor guys experience with clomid.
Someone should suggest Nolvadex and HCG instead of clomid for his PCT.
Problem solved, no need for the AI talk on this one.
 
I think you have a better chance getting gyno rebound from nolva than you would with clomid...in my experiences anyway. I try to avoid nolva as much as possible.

/V
 
Victor, you and I see things so differently, yet I know both approaches must work, as there are probably 40 years of bodybuilding experience between us. I'll just do my one effort to help PARooolller as if a brother asked me this question. We are all brothers and sisters here, a deeper bond exists than most places simply because of the nature of this website. OK brother, here you go.
First, use a powerful AI. I use Arimidex, I'm pretty sure aromasin would be fine. For testosterone recovery it is used to keep the testosterone/ estrogen balance in favor of testosterone.
Next, I'll admit that clomid is universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of LHRH. LHRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied, this is where HCG comes in!!) to produce testosterone. Problem is, I worry about the same side effects as you, and in my opinion, you are running low doses of clomid ( most people I know run 100 then 50) SO.........
I substitute nolvadex. 20 mg ed. Why, because volumes of research and empirical evidence suggest the usefulness of this estrogen blocker for recovery. Its action is very similar to Clomid but is better suited for individuals who experience side effects from Clomid.
The only other thing I would add here is that I would run the Clomid or Nolvadex for 8 weeks instead of 4. I would run the Arimidex for 10 weeks at .5mg ed. I hope that helps
 
HereIam said:
Is anyone hearing the poor guys experience with clomid.
Someone should suggest Nolvadex and HCG instead of clomid for his PCT.
Problem solved, no need for the AI talk on this one.
Click to expand...

I believe clomid should be taken as part of any and all PCT if only for the first 2 weeks and then switching over to a gradually decreasing dose of tamoxifen. Clomid is the only thing that actively restores HPTA function, and so should really be very seriously considered. Most people don't get bad sides from it in the first 2 weeks, it's usually after that, that the trouble starts.

hCG should be taken during the cycle to keep the balls awake. Then you pound the clomid short and sweet, the HP part of the HPTA wakes up and bang, your PCT is done.

There is some evidence that high dose hCG can damage the leydig cells.
 
HereIam said:
Victor, you and I see things so differently, yet I know both approaches must work, as there are probably 40 years of bodybuilding experience between us. I'll just do my one effort to help PARooolller as if a brother asked me this question. We are all brothers and sisters here, a deeper bond exists than most places simply because of the nature of this website. OK brother, here you go.
First, use a powerful AI. I use Arimidex, I'm pretty sure aromasin would be fine. For testosterone recovery it is used to keep the testosterone/ estrogen balance in favor of testosterone.
Next, I'll admit that clomid is universally accepted as THE testosterone recovery tool. It blocks estrogen from the HPTA and stimulates the production of LHRH. LHRH then initiates the production of LH, which in turn signals the testis (if not atrophied, this is where HCG comes in!!) to produce testosterone. Problem is, I worry about the same side effects as you, and in my opinion, you are running low doses of clomid ( most people I know run 100 then 50) SO.........
I substitute nolvadex. 20 mg ed. Why, because volumes of research and empirical evidence suggest the usefulness of this estrogen blocker for recovery. Its action is very similar to Clomid but is better suited for individuals who experience side effects from Clomid.
The only other thing I would add here is that I would run the Clomid or Nolvadex for 8 weeks instead of 4. I would run the Arimidex for 10 weeks at .5mg ed. I hope that helps
Click to expand...

I agree with you for the most part and don't think we see that much all to different. I've done some extensive research and I don't think Nolva should be used at all. Running an AI from day one until a week or two after PCT is the way to go.

I strongly believe that an AI should be used as long as there is an aromatizing compound being administered. Testosterone and HCG aromatize therefore using an AI until these meds clear and a few weeks longer is what I am recommending.

There is some evidence that adding Nolva to an AI does not increase the effectiveness of estro control therefore Nolva has no real advantage alongside an AI unless one is experiencing gyno.

Additionally Nolva has been proven to reduce IGF-1 and GH levels when used alone. This is not a big deal on cycle as testosterone increases IGF-1 in a dose dependant relationship. However off cycle this is a problem. PCT is a fragile time and lower IGF-1 and GH levels is not desirable. If you are at all prone to gyno, I would put aromasin on the top of the list. I've stuck with adex for many years and it has always suited me fine, yet on the other hand, I'm not really that prone to gyno.

I would also advise not using nolva when on cycle. I usually run tren in most of my programs, deca as well. Using AAS such as tren and deca is a big no no. 19-nors (deca/tren) cause progesterone gyno, not gyno from estrogen...different hormone meaning that an anti-estrogen won't help and nolva in particular has been shown to make progesterone-related gyno symptoms worse.

And lastly, I've never seen protocols or a logical reason why clomid should be run for 8 weeks during PCT. I always run (200mg day 1&2) than 100/75/50/50 (while still taking adex). This method has proven excellent results for me, time and time again.

/V
 
I've alwyas read that nolvadex has NO place in a bodybuilder's arsenal...

Honestly, havoc is the least suppressive prohormone...HCG won't be needed..I'm just going to go with 4 weeks of low dose clomid...and maybe some armidex for the last 2 weeks of pct and then 2 weeks following pct...what dosages should i run? what sides can i expect?
 
I wouldn't expect any sides if you run the adex right bro. Most use at .5mg EOD up to 1mg ED. I can't speak on behalf of havoc as I have never touched the stuff. Since you mentioned you are prone to gyno, I would run .5mg ED...I don't think I've heard of anyone doing more than 1mg ED. Depends on what I run, I use .5-1mg ed. You shouldn't get any sides, aside from the possibility of testicular atrophy (hit the HCG if that happens). Keep nolva on hand ONLY if gyno happens, or else keep it tucked far away in the closet. :)

/V
 
Horrux said:
Clomid is the only thing that actively restores HPTA function...Most people don't get bad sides from it in the first 2 weeks, it's usually after that, that the trouble starts.

....Then you pound the clomid short and sweet, the HP part of the HPTA wakes up and bang, your PCT is done.

There is some evidence that high dose hCG can damage the leydig cells.
Click to expand...
Do you just type to see the pretty designs on the screen? Please refrain from future posts.
 
PARooolller said:
yo bros,

I'm in week 3 of an 8 week Havoc cycle and will run my typical low dose Clomid PCT for 4 weeks with a dosing scheme as follows

week 1-25mg
week 2-25mg
week 3-15mg
week 4-10mg

I love clomid for pct because of its action with the ball sac and its other modes of action...I usually expereience sides such as acne, vision changes, depression, fat gain, and water retention--typical sides for a SERM

We all know clomid RAISES estrogen also, and no matter how much i taper i always get a little rebound...

Could I run an AI after my clomid therapy to cut down on these sides?

school me on AI's I've never taken any and would like to know their sides/downsides..
Click to expand...

1) I don't know how clomid raises estrogen. Please explain.

2) If you're experiencing vision sides DO NOT continue use as they are PERMANENT.

3) Keep your dose of AI low as you'll have two concerns: (1) cholesterol profile and (2) it can inhibit htpa function by decreasing shbg (lower shbg increases free test and therefore may lower total test via negative feedback).
 
PARooolller said:
SERMS raise your estrogen bro...look around im too busy to check for proof
Click to expand...
Yea, well you're not the only one who's busy and I wasn't the person who made the comment. I gave it a quick shot and didn't see anything.

The great majority of estrogen in men is created via aromatase enzyme. So, are you trying to say that elevated T levels cause elevated E levels? Or is it that clomiphene citrate upgrades the aromatase enzyme?

Clomid is an estrogen itself. Is this creating the issue?

You know what, don't answer my question. I already know the answer. My "questions" are really meant as food for thought. Hopefully, it'll sink in for some.
 
hiddenbeneathe said:
Do you just type to see the pretty designs on the screen? Please refrain from future posts.
Click to expand...

It'll be my pleasure to squish you underneath the superiority of my intellect, my knowledge or my physique, or all 3, at my leisure. :)
 
hiddenbeneathe said:
Yea, well you're not the only one who's busy and I wasn't the person who made the comment. I gave it a quick shot and didn't see anything.

The great majority of estrogen in men is created via aromatase enzyme. So, are you trying to say that elevated T levels cause elevated E levels? Or is it that clomiphene citrate upgrades the aromatase enzyme?

Clomid is an estrogen itself. Is this creating the issue?

You know what, don't answer my question. I already know the answer. My "questions" are really meant as food for thought. Hopefully, it'll sink in for some.
Click to expand...

Wow, you're quite ready to be taken down a few notches, Mr. I-have-more-ego-than-intellect.

Of course elevated T causes elevated E you moron. Most E comes from the aromatization of T, as you said. Or do you not know the meaning of your own words?
 
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