The Vow of Celibacy Should be Eliminated by The Catholic Church

[rickolasnice]

"Maya, you have to get married first before you have sex as this is what God wants us, you have to be as pure as you can for your husband and be a good mother to your future family." Since you have already committed these sins, you have to recite 10 Hail Mary's, 5 Our Fathers and 3 Glory Be's."

Sexism and superstitious stupidity all in one. Is there some structure to these strange chants? Does 5 hail Mary's, 2 Our fathers and 2 Glory Be's get you off the hook for masturbating while 50 Hail Mary's, 100 Our fathers and 60 Glory Be's get's you off the hook for having a baby with another woman, while married?

Tromps.. I'd really like you to rejoin my religion thread debate (as to not derail this one)

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

I do not understand why the Catholic church imposed the Vow of Celibacy for priests in the first place

Well Jesus was celibate, and Christianity is about emulating the dude. John the Baptist too.

I used to view premarital sex or having sex outside of marriage a sin as per the religious views that was imposed on me as a child but if you look into it deeply

Does it help you imitate Christ? Does the NT ever say anything that would make you think the classification of fornication as a mortal sin was negotiable? And if the point of religion is to reflect the values of mainstream society, Christianity should never have existed to begin with, asceticism is at the heart of the religion.

"Maya, you have to get married first before you have sex as this is what God wants us, you have to be as pure as you can for your husband and be a good mother to your future family." Since you have already committed these sins, you have to recite 10 Hail Mary's, 5 Our Fathers and 3 Glory Be's."

Hypocrisy or Sprituality?

Confession and penance (saying some prayers are pretty light, that's not even one rosary!) are for the forgiveness of sins. The religion doesn't say," mess up once and you go to hell", it says, "if you commit a mortal sin (you almost certainly will, man is imperfect), repent of your sin, confess to a priest, do penance, and be absolved."

According to catholic belief, mortal sins take away the state of grace you received with your baptism, and it is being in a state of grace that is necessary to join Christ in everlasting life, if you die in a state of mortal sin, you are damned. The aforementioned confession process will restore God's grace unto you. Or so I understand it (I'm sure theologians can make it much more complicated than that, but for the laity, who are rarely concerned with the minutae, this is what you need to know).

What really surprises me is how long you could be nominally Catholic and yet gain so little understanding of the religion, unless you left in childhood, i.e. before Confirmation. (seems like a lot of us P&S-ers became athiests as they approached puberty).

 

[Maya]

What really surprises me is how long you could be nominally Catholic and yet gain so little understanding of the religion, unless you left in childhood, i.e. before Confirmation. (seems like a lot of us P&S-ers became athiests as they approached puberty).

It will depend on the interpretation of the preacher/priests. Look at how many different branches Christianity has but the interpretations are quite different (sign of the cross, priests marrying in other denominations).

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Individual interpretation does not come into play in the RCC, the Magisterium alone has that power. You probably just only went to Church on sundays and never studied the Catechism or took part in any other activities, I'm guessing? It's common among people who are religious by default. Or maybe it's only religion aficionados, converts, and clergy who care about the theological positions of particular religions/sects.

Anyway, on the matter of the confession and penance, I think this post put it really well:

Every person has a conscience. If you do something against your conscience, even if no one else knows about it, it creates a psychological burden (think, sordid confessions on your deathbed). It's not an equation-- if you do good things for the sake of erasing those bad things, without truly dealing with the matter, you will still have that burden. Things like confession or other equivalent sacraments look to synthesize the experience, to psychologically release you from your guilt.

 

[Tromps]

According to catholic belief, mortal sins take away the state of grace you received with your baptism, and it is being in a state of grace that is necessary to join Christ in everlasting life, if you die in a state of mortal sin, you are damned. The aforementioned confession process will restore God's grace unto you. Or so I understand it (I'm sure theologians can make it much more complicated than that, but for the laity, who are rarely concerned with the minutae, this is what you need to know).

What really surprises me is how long you could be nominally Catholic and yet gain so little understanding of the religion, unless you left in childhood, i.e. before Confirmation. (seems like a lot of us P&S-ers became athiests as they approached puberty).

You forgot one crucial and important aspect that shows God's love for us and how much he wants us to be with him.

Purgatory.

Dying in state of serious sin that you have not repented, does not automatically determine your fate of hell.

Remember that God knows our entire future and knows our intent, if we have the intention to repent and die before we are able to, we may still inherit God's Kingdom and join Christ, but must be 'cleansed through fire' and 'pay every last debt' first before our souls are clean & pure enough for eternal paradise.
I actually was more atheist in my teenage years, I dropped out of confirmation classes that my parents forced in high school and passionately tried to disprove God to my peers. I didn't go through RCIA to become confirmed as an adult until collage, by my own free will, and around age 20-21 I had many revelations and learned many things that ultimately lead me to a strong awareness of a higher power.

To catholics who really can't confess to a priest for some reason and have a hard/uncomfortable time doing so, at least prayer frequently, worship, praise, and giving thanks throughout your day can go a long way for your soul.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

^According to the book I've been consulting (Instructions in the Catholic Faith), Purgatory is for venial sins. It is my understanding based upon previous knowledge that condemnation isn't quite so automatic, it's just better to phrase things strictly to guard against Cafeteria Catholicism.

 

[Tromps]

^ Well, venial sins are abolished and forgiven when attending mass during the ceremony of the Eucharist in the partaking of the body and blood of Christ, and also near the beginning of worship when the people pray "Lord Have Mercy, Christ Have Mercy, Lord, Have Mercy" the prayers erase venial sins.

Purgatory could also apply towards all people of other faiths and religions, if by no fault of their own they had not believed, and get the chance to learn the truth in a place in-between here and heaven, thanks be to God.

God is perfect and just. No soul will be judged unjustly.

Muslims also believe in a form of purgatory, but instead one is shown and given the glimpse of hell fire before heaven, or depending on the sinfulness of their human lives they may spend a temporary period of time in hell before paradise for purification to set them aright.

God's great compassion and mercy is most benevolent in forgiveness. I have faith our Creator wills what is most necessary to provide every opportunity for God's grace and life after death to encompass the bulk of his creation for heaven. The powers of light will win over the powers of darkness.

Though yes you're right, it's better to make the punishment for sinning, even minor sins, sound harsh and strict, it's a better way to guard against cafeteria Catholics as you said.

 

[exists]

I wish I could change my vote to "no." Celibacy, I believe, is a good thing for those who wish to make such a spiritual commitment. I don't think most who wish to hold positions in the Catholic church (or any church ftm) should be encouraged to be celibate, for the reasons I mentioned previously, but the vow should not be eliminated, either. I don't believe that celibacy by itself results in deviancy.

My prayer is that through this discussion (and others like it), real progress can be made -- and understanding found -- so that more lives are not destroyed, and the cycle of abuse can be broken

 

[Maya]

^Agreed, I think that priests should be given the option to either be celibate or not. This may not solve the entire issue but it will open doors into new and better ways on serving God. This may also give way in changing the contradictions in the teachings of doctrines in the Catholic church.

It looks like the No party is leading though.

 

[L2R]

the whole point of the christian religion is to lead by example.
saints are saints for being christ-like
the clergy endeavour to be christ-like via the example set by saints
members try to be christ-like by the example set by the clergy

the entire system and its main book is fundamentally a chain of hagiographic praise.

anyone who uses the religion to create harm (through war or abuse) is not actually functioning as a part of the real root of the system.

 

[Shadowsblaze]

You forgot one crucial and important aspect that shows God's love for us and how much he wants us to be with him.

Purgatory.

Dying in state of serious sin that you have not repented, does not automatically determine your fate of hell.

Remember that God knows our entire future and knows our intent, if we have the intention to repent and die before we are able to, we may still inherit God's Kingdom and join Christ, but must be 'cleansed through fire' and 'pay every last debt' first before our souls are clean & pure enough for eternal paradise.
I actually was more atheist in my teenage years, I dropped out of confirmation classes that my parents forced in high school and passionately tried to disprove God to my peers. I didn't go through RCIA to become confirmed as an adult until collage, by my own free will, and around age 20-21 I had many revelations and learned many things that ultimately lead me to a strong awareness of a higher power.

To catholics who really can't confess to a priest for some reason and have a hard/uncomfortable time doing so, at least prayer frequently, worship, praise, and giving thanks throughout your day can go a long way for your soul.

Concerning church doctrine again, there is no mention in the Bible of a place called purgatory nor any description of such a concept. Also limbo is another that is neither mentioned or described as a place for babies that die before being baptized. These are teachings of men, "doctrines."

 

[Tromps]

Concerning church doctrine again, there is no mention in the Bible of a place called purgatory nor any description of such a concept. Also limbo is another that is neither mentioned or described as a place for babies that die before being baptized. These are teachings of men, "doctrines."

Terms such as trinity don't appear in the Bible either, but a Christian would certainly believe in the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit.

From my reading of the Bible I have interpreted and with the help of others studied passages that suggest a place between here and heaven, before the final day of judgement and resurrection, when all the souls in purgatory will be released and it will no longer exist.

Some examples - Jesus in the Gospel talks about this correction and indirectly Purgatory at the end of His parable on forgiveness:

And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers (torturers), till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart. [Matt 18:34-35]

In this passage there is no mention of God punishing very serious sinners but only those who sin by not forgiving others. Also the punishment referred to here is not eternal as in hell (Mark 9:47-48 ) but only temporary - "till he should pay all his debt."

Cor 3:12-15 - Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble - each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Purgatory is a temporary state for souls who need cleansing from the bad effects, mess, scandal and attachments (attraction to sin) still remaining sins. Such tainted souls, cannot enter heaven directly. As stated in the Bible: "But nothing unclean shall enter it (heaven)..." [Rev 21:27]. These souls need to be purged of all "uncleanness", no matter how slight before seeing God face to face (Rev 22:3-5). Eventually all souls in Purgatory will go to heaven.

 

[B9]

I'd have thought that the catholic church makes its own rules according to the clerics interpretation of their holy book.
To suggest that it would be possible for some agency to cause/enforce a U turn on the matter misses the point - the point being that it's a belief.
It's a matter for the church to decide upon.
It's like saying to me that I ought to believe that drugs should be illegal - you can legislate that they're illegal but I still believe that they ought not be.

 

[Tromps]

News from the Vatican.

Pope Francis' 2nd: Clerical celibacy is open to discussion:

The Vatican’s new secretary of state [Archbishop Pietro Parolin] has said that priestly celibacy is not church dogma and therefore open to discussion, marking a significant change in approach towards one of the thorniest issues facing the Roman Catholic Church.

"Celibacy is not an institution but look, it is also true that you can discuss (it) because as you say this is not a dogma, a dogma of the church," Archbishop Pietro Parolin said in response to a question during an interview with Venezuelan newspaper El Universal.

He added that while it was not dogma, clerical celibacy was a deeply entrenched Catholic tradition.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...-clerical-celibacy-is-open-to-discussion?lite

Also News reports that the Pope been reaching out to atheists and agnostics.

Pope Francis has struck a surprisingly conciliatory tone towards atheists and agnostics, saying that God will “forgive” them as long as they behave morally and live according to their consciences.

The unprecedented gesture came as his incoming number two, the Vatican’s newly nominated secretary of state, said the rule that priests should be celibate was not “a dogma of the Church” and could be open for discussion.

Francis, who has won praise for spontaneous and unusual moves during his six-month papacy, wrote a lengthy letter to a newspaper, La Repubblica, which the Italian daily printed over four pages.

“God forgives those who obey their conscience,” he wrote in the letter, the latest example of the markedly different tone and style from his predecessors that he has set since being elected in March.

I really think sin is when you ignore your conscience when you know right from wrong. I truly believe God's mercy is infinitely powerful to encompass all of those who do good.

Personally I believe if you develop a relationship with our divine higher power you will live a more happy and peaceful life. I also read that people who have faith and believe in our divine origin, God, have less depression, loneliness, sadness, than those who endure in hope, faith, and love.

 

[Tromps]

oops - accidentally double posted

/delete

 

[Maya]

News from the Vatican.


http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...-clerical-celibacy-is-open-to-discussion?lite


Also News reports that the Pope been reaching out to atheists and agnostics.



I really think sin is when you ignore your conscience when you know right from wrong. I truly believe God's mercy is infinitely powerful to encompass all of those who do good.

Personally I believe if you develop a relationship with our divine higher power you will live a more happy and peaceful life. I also read that people who have faith and believe in our divine origin, God, have less depression, loneliness, sadness, than those who endure in hope, faith, and love.

I'm quite delighted that this topic is going to be given a chance for discussion. Yes, The Catholic church has kept celibacy as part of tradition but in this modern age it is impractical to still be practicing celibacy. If celibacy will not be eliminated entirely, then at least be an option to either follow celibacy or not.


I agree with you, sin is when you also continuously commit the same mistake without feeling the remorse for your actions or deeds. To be honest, I still have not gone to church as I do not see that it is necessary to do so and as long as I am doing good things to my family,friends and helping and supporting other people. There are people who go to church and still commit the same sins and I find it hypocritical, and there are people who don't go to church but are living better lives and contribute to society in a better aspect.

 

[Spoo]

The Catholic Church doesn't have to justify itself in any rational way to unto anything it does for any prractice at all. Im not a religious man but I think they should be able to do what they want and not give into anything for anyone. Their God is as real as the color red. You cant invoke "Tyranny of the Should" to these Cardinals.

 

[Maya]

Yes they can do whatever they want as it is their organization, but as an organization, they should be willing to address and discuss issues arising from its members. There will always be rules designated for each religion but not all the rules apply to everyone and as I have tried to explain on my previous posts, members should have the freedom to choose what works for them.

 

[Foreigner]

The Catholic Church doesn't have to justify itself in any rational way to unto anything it does for any prractice at all. Im not a religious man but I think they should be able to do what they want and not give into anything for anyone. Their God is as real as the color red. You cant invoke "Tyranny of the Should" to these Cardinals.

The Catholic Church has a billion followers (on paper anyway) worldwide which makes them a major social force. We may not be faithful followers but observing the Vatican's politics is important.

 

[treezy z]

i really have no opinion on this, as a non-catholic i don't feel it's my place to take a side. i don't really know how being celibate would lead to raping kids. but it WOULD bring a lot of men with normal, non-deviant sexuality to the priesthood, so it would be a good thing in that regard. but like i said i'm not catholic or know much about the religion so i voted "i don't know."