Mental Health The UK's unfair rules on Benzos for Mental Health patients!

I think the whole respiratory depression surrounding the combination of opioids and benzos is a little over-hyped imo. I mean I've been taking my regular doses of Oxy and Pregab on top of the Temazepam and I haven't noticed any added respiratory depression. Maybe it only becomes an issue in much higher doses.

It's a matter of dosage relative to tolerance.

Make no mistake, if you had no tolerance and mixed oxy with benzos you very well could die.

However as you develop a tolerance to the oxy the threshold for respiratory depression also increases. So if you stick to scripted doses you are good.

Don't let this lure you into a false sense of security thinking it would be safe to just bosh benzos on top of oxy though. It ain't, even with the tolerance. But sensible scripted doses with tolerance is fine in the vast majority of cases yes.

I've been scripted morphine, DHC, diazepam, temazepam all at once from the same doc before. It's fine if you have medical supervision, a tolerance, and scripted doses. Much more dangerous if you are abusing or self-medicating and take uncontrolled doses.
 
It's a matter of dosage relative to tolerance.

Make no mistake, if you had no tolerance and mixed oxy with benzos you very well could die.

However as you develop a tolerance to the oxy the threshold for respiratory depression also increases. So if you stick to scripted doses you are good.

Don't let this lure you into a false sense of security thinking it would be safe to just bosh benzos on top of oxy though. It ain't, even with the tolerance. But sensible scripted doses with tolerance is fine in the vast majority of cases yes.

I've been scripted morphine, DHC, diazepam, temazepam all at once from the same doc before. It's fine if you have medical supervision, a tolerance, and scripted doses. Much more dangerous if you are abusing or self-medicating and take uncontrolled doses.

Yeah thats true.
 
I've been scripted morphine, DHC, diazepam, temazepam all at once from the same doc before. It's fine if you have medical supervision, a tolerance, and scripted doses. Much more dangerous if you are abusing or self-medicating and take uncontrolled doses.

Phone number of your doctor please.
 
When I had my shoulder reconstructed (so that's a piece of bone cut off from one area and screwed down with two screws in a different position, and all the ligaments cut, shortened and stitched back together) they tried to send me home from the hospital with ibuprofen. I actually had to have an argument with them to get them to give me a box of DHC, that is fucking insane.

The next day when I woke up and the local injection they put around the radial nerve had worn off it was so painful it took me about 20 minutes to be able to sit up in bed and then get out. To this day I have no idea how they can have possibly thought that was in any way appropriate whatsoever.
 
When I had my shoulder reconstructed (so that's a piece of bone cut off from one area and screwed down with two screws in a different position, and all the ligaments cut, shortened and stitched back together) they tried to send me home from the hospital with ibuprofen. I actually had to have an argument with them to get them to give me a box of DHC, that is fucking insane.

The next day when I woke up and the local injection they put around the radial nerve had worn off it was so painful it took me about 20 minutes to be able to sit up in bed and then get out. To this day I have no idea how they can have possibly thought that was in any way appropriate whatsoever.
What a joke, I’d have made a complaint there and then before I left the place. Imagine ibuprofen for that! You’d be surprised at how many people just take them at their word through and suffer through things because they think the drs know best.
 
Yeah it boggles my mind a bit, no idea what they were thinking. I wasnt leaving the hospital without either the box of dhc or a pair of handcuffs round my wrists so a complaint didnt come to mind :D

Went to a private doc and got some mscontins a couple of days later.
 
usa is a lot more relaxed on benzodiazepenes....because opiates are taking over everything....so if you dont take opiates....and have anxiety...xanax is the first thing you will get ....or klonopin
 
When I had my shoulder reconstructed (so that's a piece of bone cut off from one area and screwed down with two screws in a different position, and all the ligaments cut, shortened and stitched back together) they tried to send me home from the hospital with ibuprofen. I actually had to have an argument with them to get them to give me a box of DHC, that is fucking insane.

The next day when I woke up and the local injection they put around the radial nerve had worn off it was so painful it took me about 20 minutes to be able to sit up in bed and then get out. To this day I have no idea how they can have possibly thought that was in any way appropriate whatsoever.

Same thing happened with my most recent surgery. Literally a few months ago. They wanted to send me off with just paracetamol, I questioned is that really gonna help this level of pain and the surgeon agreed to give me co-dydramol 10/500. So, yes, pretty much the same as OTC Paramol. I asked are you sure this will be enough, last time I had regular DHC and morphine. He said it will be fine because it's a more minor procedure. Didn't want to argue too much so I left it.

As you can imagine after I got home and the local anaesthetic wore off I was howling in fucking pain. It was the same pain level as the more invasive procedure I had previously but got given proper painkillers for.

So I rang up my GP, who used to have no trouble giving me opiates when I needed them especially after surgery. This time though I was given a single box of DHC 30mg (at least it's something...) and was told I wouldn't get any more when I later said my pain levels were still unbearable. Was given a lecture about how addictive opiates are etc. I just lost it saying how do you think I will get addicted when all I want is a proper dose of the same drug I've had before for while I'm recovering from surgery for a couple weeks? I was in serious pain didn't give a shit about playing any games or trying to be clever, I just needed fucking meds that worked!

Was like talking to a brick wall so I went back to the surgeon and did get another box of DHC from them, the regular 30mg's this time. Which again is at least something.

During all this time I just started using cannabis for pain relief which thankfully was actually very effective. Much more effective than tiny DHC doses anyway.

To give some comparison, last time I had similar surgery I was given 240mg DHC daily + 20mg morphine IR as needed for a month with no problem whatsoever, didn't have to ask or argue, was just given it. It worked very well, only felt mild discomfort after my morning dose. So it's not like I was asking for anything ridiculous, literally just a proper dose of DHC would have done it for me.

They seem to be seriously taking a US attitude towards opiate prescriptions at the moment which is nuts to me. We don't have the opioid problem the US does, there is no reason to deny patients with real pain some fucking DHC just because of shit happening on the other side of the world in a totally different situation as a result of much more powerful drugs.
 
UK prescribing of controlled drugs is utter madness, seems like it is utterly rudderless.

I can only presume that the situation in the US has put the frighteners on the people responsible for NICE guidelines and that there has been some sort of drive to ensure the same doesn't happen here. Whilst that is in some ways the correct thing to do (although a socialised healthcare system removes a lot of the catalysts involved in the US situation so we are not really comparable) it no doubt also means that a large number of doctors will just abandon any sense of their own judgement and start refusing treatment they should be providing because they are scared.

Again though, for me this all goes back to the pharma companies. This is the pattern that I see:

1. Pharmaceutical company develops drug that is effective at dealing with a certain condition or set of conditions, but realise that it also comes with a set of potentially very damaging side-effects.

2. Pharmaceutical company seeks to maximise the sales of this drug by minimising the recognition of these damaging side-effects through engaging in questionable research and testing procedures, aggressive marketing techniques, misleading or understating important information, highlighting it's benefits in comparison to a previous generation of drugs, perhaps even marketing it for conditions where it is not really all that effective etc

3. Doctors who work within governmental guidelines and procedures assume that the structures in place to ensure the safety of new drugs are sound and start prescribing freely if the medical community's paradigm is that it is ok to do so (which is entirely reasonable).

4. X number of years later it becomes clear than this new generation of drugs are actually not as safe as we were led to believe, and oh now we have this massive contingent of unwell people that we have to spend loads of money tidying up due to this drug. We also feel like we have been duped and lied to in regards to this drug.

5. People involved in controlling prescribing guidelines think oh shit look at this mess we've caused we need to prevent this from ever happening again let's tighten up the guidelines considerably and campaign to create a change in attitude amongst doctors to achieve this.

6. Doctors understandably become mistrustful or wary of this drug and start prescribing it far less, perhaps even when they really should be. Humans have a tendency to see things in black and white and whilst you have to have a reasonable level of intelligence to be a doctor it doesnt mean that you're not human and prone to misjudgment, especially when they know the personal consequences of one decision being wrong are are essentially nil (not prescribing opiates when a patient genuinely needs them) and the personal consequences of the alternative decision are potentially gigantic (over prescribing of opiates).

7. It's worth noting that in particular newly qualified doctors who have grown up in the field around the consequences of these drugs and likely had very limited experience working with patients who have benefited from them. To them this drug now represents a danger to the patient that they understand very well, a danger to themselves if they misprescribe that they understand very well, and a profile of benefits that they dont understand very well at all. Obviously they're not going to reach for that drug, and anyway by now........

8. Of course the pharma companies have a brand new shiny generation of drugs, and the whole process starts again.
 
During all this time I just started using cannabis for pain relief which thankfully was actually very effective. Much more effective than tiny DHC doses anyway.

Probably warrants its own thread and don't wanna derail this but I tell with no hyperbole that a decent hit off some concentrates (say a 30)mg dab that would likely give 20mg ish thc mimimum, can be every bit as effective as say 20mg oral morphine. It also hits quicker (all pain dissolved within 10 seconds) and relief can last up to 3 hours. Not all strains will do that for me though, not many infact. But when you find one that does then it's a massive result.

I have to be very careful with my GP. I've socially engineered a relationship with him over the last 20 years to the extent that he will sometimes lean back, pad in hand, and literally say "Just tell me what you want..."
 
Probably warrants its own thread and don't wanna derail this but I tell with no hyperbole that a decent hit off some concentrates (say a 30)mg dab that would likely give 20mg ish thc mimimum, can be every bit as effective as say 20mg oral morphine. It also hits quicker (all pain dissolved within 10 seconds) and relief can last up to 3 hours. Not all strains will do that for me though, not many infact. But when you find one that does then it's a massive result.

I have to be very careful with my GP. I've socially engineered a relationship with him over the last 20 years to the extent that he will sometimes lean back, pad in hand, and literally say "Just tell me what you want..."

Yeah a long term relationship makes a big difference I guess, wish I had a consistent GP through the last decade of my healthcare.
 
UK prescribing of controlled drugs is utter madness, seems like it is utterly rudderless.

I can only presume that the situation in the US has put the frighteners on the people responsible for NICE guidelines and that there has been some sort of drive to ensure the same doesn't happen here. Whilst that is in some ways the correct thing to do (although a socialised healthcare system removes a lot of the catalysts involved in the US situation so we are not really comparable) it no doubt also means that a large number of doctors will just abandon any sense of their own judgement and start refusing treatment they should be providing because they are scared.

Again though, for me this all goes back to the pharma companies. This is the pattern that I see:

1. Pharmaceutical company develops drug that is effective at dealing with a certain condition or set of conditions, but realise that it also comes with a set of potentially very damaging side-effects.

2. Pharmaceutical company seeks to maximise the sales of this drug by minimising the recognition of these damaging side-effects through engaging in questionable research and testing procedures, aggressive marketing techniques, misleading or understating important information, highlighting it's benefits in comparison to a previous generation of drugs, perhaps even marketing it for conditions where it is not really all that effective etc

3. Doctors who work within governmental guidelines and procedures assume that the structures in place to ensure the safety of new drugs are sound and start prescribing freely if the medical community's paradigm is that it is ok to do so (which is entirely reasonable).

4. X number of years later it becomes clear than this new generation of drugs are actually not as safe as we were led to believe, and oh now we have this massive contingent of unwell people that we have to spend loads of money tidying up due to this drug. We also feel like we have been duped and lied to in regards to this drug.

5. People involved in controlling prescribing guidelines think oh shit look at this mess we've caused we need to prevent this from ever happening again let's tighten up the guidelines considerably and campaign to create a change in attitude amongst doctors to achieve this.

6. Doctors understandably become mistrustful or wary of this drug and start prescribing it far less, perhaps even when they really should be. Humans have a tendency to see things in black and white and whilst you have to have a reasonable level of intelligence to be a doctor it doesnt mean that you're not human and prone to misjudgment, especially when they know the personal consequences of one decision being wrong are are essentially nil (not prescribing opiates when a patient genuinely needs them) and the personal consequences of the alternative decision are potentially gigantic (over prescribing of opiates).

7. It's worth noting that in particular newly qualified doctors who have grown up in the field around the consequences of these drugs and likely had very limited experience working with patients who have benefited from them. To them this drug now represents a danger to the patient that they understand very well, a danger to themselves if they misprescribe that they understand very well, and a profile of benefits that they dont understand very well at all. Obviously they're not going to reach for that drug, and anyway by now........

8. Of course the pharma companies have a brand new shiny generation of drugs, and the whole process starts again.

This is all bang on, but what frustrates me is that those who make the guidelines and the docs who then prescribe based on them don't stop to exercise a reasonable level of caution towards marketing claims made by the company trying to sell you something.

I mean if Apple tells me the iPhone is the best smartphone ever and an iPad can replace my laptop I won't just blindly say "well you guys must be right, why would you lie?" and fork over my money. I will do some research, look at alternatives, and come to my own conclusions.

But apparently it is too much to ask for medical professionals who are literally responsible for the health of patients to do the same when handing out psychoactive drugs?

Don't get me wrong I do not expect every GP to take the time to do this, they are very busy people, but what about those at NICE who write up the guidelines to begin with? What about each CCG who then set local guidelines? What about the roles of NHS trusts? What about the fact that the whole reason we have GP practises with multiple docs under one roof is so they can encourage each other to make responsible prescribing decisions?

I also find it pretty mad that the vast majority of GPs seem to have zero pharmacological knowledge. And again I don't expect them to be chemists or something, but shouldn't they have at least a basic level of knowledge of what it is they're prescribing to their own patients? It seems most of them just google your symptoms, look in one of their huge dusty books at what meds they should use for those symptoms, and just hand you a script.

If they had some simple pharmacological knowledge they also wouldn't be so taken in by marketing claims from pharma companies. Pregabalin being an excellent recent example. I was scripted it years before it was controlled. Back then every doctor I met couldn't wait to throw the stuff at me and jack me up to the max dose. I questioned if this was a good idea because the side effects were pretty bad and I read the withdrawals were too. I was told nah this is safe, it's new, it's non-addictive, blah blah blah... this was of course bollocks. But I was being told this by everyone from GPs to top psychiatrists who really should fucking know better.

Oh oh oh but don't ever prescribe 5mg diazepam because ur gonna get addicted and die in a gutter somewhere but have 600mg pregabalin and whatever SSRIs you want and here's a quetiapine script on top just in case. THIS IS ALL PERFECTLY FUCKING SAFE.

Sorry for the rant but the amount of hoops I had to jump through just to get a prn benzo script was utterly insane and I am truly of the belief if I got it earlier in life I'd be in a much better position now. And what really gets me is they were more than happy to give me pregabalin and quetiapine all day long and told me how safe they fucking were.

How the fuck is it that I know more about psych meds than most fucking doctors? I shouldn't, they should know far more than me!

Probably warrants its own thread and don't wanna derail this but I tell with no hyperbole that a decent hit off some concentrates (say a 30)mg dab that would likely give 20mg ish thc mimimum, can be every bit as effective as say 20mg oral morphine. It also hits quicker (all pain dissolved within 10 seconds) and relief can last up to 3 hours. Not all strains will do that for me though, not many infact. But when you find one that does then it's a massive result.

I have to be very careful with my GP. I've socially engineered a relationship with him over the last 20 years to the extent that he will sometimes lean back, pad in hand, and literally say "Just tell me what you want..."

Not sure about its own thread as the painkilling properties of cannabis are well established at this point and, in the US at least, rapidly becoming mainstream medicine. The UK is just behind but still we're making slowwwww progress.

I have a good relationship with my GP as well which is why I was so shocked at what happened. No problem getting my other CDs on repeat. But apparently I'm a possible opiate addict now? I definitely don't want that in my notes so I'm gonna have a calm open chat when the corona shit has died down.
 
What gets me is in Asia I could walk in to a pharmacy and buy antibiotics over the counter as well as Xanax and strong pain meds without a prescription and they told them by the box full for a good price and it was the same pharmacy that we have in the UK but different rules. Xanax in the uk is very hard to get out of a doctor but they give Valium out where I live like candy it’s strange.
 
What gets me is in Asia I could walk in to a pharmacy and buy antibiotics over the counter as well as Xanax and strong pain meds without a prescription and they told them by the box full for a good price and it was the same pharmacy that we have in the UK but different rules. Xanax in the uk is very hard to get out of a doctor but they give Valium out where I live like candy it’s strange.

This is the thing, prescribing decisions are based far more on local customs than science. The reason the UK is so strict with benzos compared to most other countries is simply because doctors got sued for overprescribing back in the 90's. At the same time, we are more lax with pharma amphetamine than Asia (although not as lax as the US) because of nothing but cultural norms - we don't see stims as "super serious addictive drugs" like we do with downers. In Japan they see things differently - benzos are loosely controlled and fairly easy to get scripted, but it is impossible to get an amphetamine script.

Likewise, the US is now super strict with opiates due to how overprescribed oxycodone was. This is now so bad even legitimate pain patients have to fight for their meds. It seems the UK is now heading the same way simply because we are afraid of something that happened in a whole other country and under circumstances that do not exist here. This is not just me either, I told my story above, but my girlfriend who has pancreatitis (extremely painful condition) has trouble getting painkillers too. If anyone deserves opiates it is surely people who have to suffer severe daily pain that disrupts quality of life?

There is of course an argument to be made that downers cause far more physical dependence than stimulants, but then so do SSRIs. The concern is not with physical dependence, it is with psychological addiction. Amphetamine can be every bit as psychologically addictive as benzos or opiates to the right person. But it is simply easier to get a repeat amphetamine script than a repeat diazepam script in the UK, it is insane.

And the cultural differences don't even need to be as broad as Asia vs Europe, for example benzos are pretty freely prescribed in France and until recently you could get some interesting opiates OTC with no NSAIDs combined.
 
Yeah it is bizarre.

I just got scripted amphetamine and given leeway to titrate my own dose up to 4x the starting dose, but he wouldnt even acknowledge the question when I asked if I could have some sleepers. Didnt even specify benzos I just said sleepers.
 
Yeah it is bizarre.

I just got scripted amphetamine and given leeway to titrate my own dose up to 4x the starting dose, but he wouldn't even acknowledge the question when I asked if I could have some sleepers. Didnt even specify benzos I just said sleepers.

Today I heard about someone actually getting a (to be decided - ritalin or dex though) script for adult adhd from a GP. The person did have a previous dignoisis but it was an 'educational diagnosis' as opposed to a clinical one. A psychiatrist was mentioned but I can't recall the context - perhaps it had to be approved but, if so, must have been deemed a formality)

Outliers are that the GP has extensive mental health / SpLD training (rare as hens teeth), the patient is eloquent and does not come over as a drug-seeker whatsoever (they aren't)
 
I was told 18 month wait for an appointment at the ADHD clinic so I went private. I also had a previous educational diagnosis, but I do have an extensive history of drug addiction.
 
I was told 18 month wait for an appointment at the ADHD clinic so I went private. I also had a previous educational diagnosis, but I do have an extensive history of drug addiction.

In Australia an extensive history of drug addiction is no barrier to being prescribed ADHD meds. I had a 25 year history of stim abuse but my doctor quite rightly saw that that was self-medicating a need that he could legitimately prescribe a solution to. I did have to pass a drug test for the initial script but never again.

ADHD and drug-abuse go hand-in-hand.
 
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